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Has to be Rayner for me. She has the right sort of working class relatively clean background. The media can’t beat her with the IRA/terrorist stick.

Starmer strikes me as a red Tory type and although some of the older generation might want somebody like him, Labour needs to continue to try and gain younger voters as they are quite literally the future. The voting stats/polls showed people under 30 massively backed labour all over the show and had the boomers not voted for the Nasty Party then we’d have a Labour government. 

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 I would have thought it was as plain as a pikestaff by now that the labour party turned its back on the working class heartlands a long while ago. There is ample evidence to back this up. The new liberal elite lefties they want to woo are not the under thirties from Stoke on Trent....especially poor and unemployed ones.  Nope its middle-class socialists they are after, who they are appealing to. And students with their heads stuffed with liberal globalist propaganda instead of a proper education. I know this because I have spent much time working in the education education education (if that sounds like brainwashing its because it is) industry encouraged by Tony Blair.

The Labour Party of today, together with it's media supporters like Owen Jones and Paul Mason, openly despise the working class. Especially the white working class. Corbynite Mason is on record as saying that Labour should ignore those he cruelly caricatured as the 'ex-miner sitting in the pub calling migrants cockroaches' and  that the northern working class were a lost cause.Most of the people surrounding Labour now have never done a days proper work in their lives. they simply have no more understanding of working class issues than a Tory....sometimes less. Heck, most of the new lot probably went to the same schools and unis as the opponents they label 'toffs'.  

The reason Labour lost is quite straight-forward and would (should) take more than a new user-friendly image to fix. They abandoned their old  voters and didn't care about their opinions. They took the votes from places like Stoke for granted and didn't try because they felt they would simply carry on like sheep. Then when they realised they may need them again they bussed in some boots on the ground to finesse the natives. Too little too late. 

Up in Blyth valley another old labour stronghold fell. Because the veteran Labour MP, Campbell stood down. why?  because he felt bound to uphold the wishes of his constituents and wouldn't vote to delay Brexit. He was a committed socialist of the genuine sort and a veteran of the Miner's Strike. Yet he was branded  a 'Scab' by a luvvie  privately educated Oxford graduate journalist for the Guardian. 

Voting over and over for the same people, irrespective of how well they represent you, is not a good move.Its like staying with the same bank , insurance or internet provider for years.  You get taken for granted and the best deals go to new customers.Voting Tory, breaking the habit pf voting red whatever, is extremely sensible. It means that they will have to try harder to get your votes back. They need to try harder too. They deserves to lose.

 

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5 hours ago, TheSage said:

You are right.

But Labour don't learn from history and continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.

You have to try and ride two horses, as Wilson and Blair did. Agreed.

The issue with Blair was that he didn't do enough for the neglected communities of the midlands and the north and then Tory austerity made things far far worse. The Tories then managed to persuade people that it was all the fault of the EU and we are where we are.

 

It did have more than a tad to do with Labour .....and the note they left in the Treasury on the day the Tories took over 'There is no money'. 

The Eu is also to blame of course. Austerity isn't a Tory policy so much as an EU one imposed on member states to shore up the Euro (even though we are not in the Eurozone we have to help shore it up) and the failing economies that abound within it. Greece, Spain, Italy, France all have huge levels of unemployment...especially among the young....and high taxes.And zero hours contracts and low incomes and foodbanks and homelessness. Its a socialist country but the economy is crippled because of the EU controls on it (when I discussed this with my local Mayor he said 'why do you think Brussels wants you to stay? To help Germany pay the bills!) 

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42 minutes ago, Barrierleaner said:

It did have more than a tad to do with Labour .....and the note they left in the Treasury on the day the Tories took over 'There is no money'. 

The Eu is also to blame of course. Austerity isn't a Tory policy so much as an EU one imposed on member states to shore up the Euro (even though we are not in the Eurozone we have to help shore it up) and the failing economies that abound within it. Greece, Spain, Italy, France all have huge levels of unemployment...especially among the young....and high taxes.And zero hours contracts and low incomes and foodbanks and homelessness. Its a socialist country but the economy is crippled because of the EU controls on it (when I discussed this with my local Mayor he said 'why do you think Brussels wants you to stay? To help Germany pay the bills!) 

I've never read so much rubbish on this site - and I've read a great deal if you consider the outpourings from the likes of REP.

Let's take the 'no money' point first; it was a poor attempt at a joke along the lines of the one the Labour politician (can't remember his name) made about Corbyn in front of his Tory supporting mates who then proceeded to make political capital with it.

Of course, that's what politicians, especially Tory politicians, do - they're opportunists. That's why they couldn't believe their luck when a global financial crisis happened on Gordon Brown's watch. It was easy to snipe from the sidelines and wait for the election - I'd like to have seen what Cameron would have done. Oh but we did didn't we? Ten years of austerity, mostly needless as it happens as Boris blows everything that was saved on a post election giveaway.

As to the EU, let's not forget they attempted to protect the British economy during the ERM fallout in 1992. All the EU member states were as vulnerable as we were in 2008 and given the interconnectedness of the world economy no one was immune. Yes, our leaving the EU leaves them with a problem as we were a net contributor, but it's not insurmountable - their 27 nations act in solidarity with one another when the going gets tough. Now we're all on our own who is going to help us out? Uncle Donald, mister America First? I doubt it hugely.

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9 hours ago, Howjy04 said:

Phineas Barnum or invite David Milliband back to regain some credibility.Labour may have a semblance of a Party by the 2029 GE.

Labour were badly wounded in the GE consequence of its inability to focus on the 'Brexit Elephant in the room' and that, in my opinion, was down to Corbyn. He should have cleared his desk immediately thus giving clear air for the 'Party to lick its electoral wounds and appoint a temp leader. Corbyn hanging around will serve no useful purpose whatsoever. In fact, it will prolong the agony of it all and impede rehabilitation.  

 

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One piece of advice I would offer to Labour..... when scrutinising social media don't just look at the posts from people who agree with you, in fact ignore them and look closely at the people who don't.... if you can ignore some of the stupidity you will plainly see why you lost.... and get those foot soldiers out on the streets door knocking to ask voters, real people, why you failed miserably and why they didn't vote for you..... momentum won't tell you.

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After Labour lost in 2015, Milliband resigned the day after - the honourable thing to do.  Gordon Brown did the same. Corbyn is clinging on by his fingernails and making himself look pathetic.  The future of the Labour Party is nothing to do with him now so he should fall on his sword immediately.

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And both of those people leaving led to a defeat at the next election. He stated that he's staying on a few months and I don't see why that is such a bad thing not to act rash. It's not like they will be able to do anything anyway.

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5 minutes ago, bobvale said:

And both of those people leaving led to a defeat at the next election. He stated that he's staying on a few months and I don't see why that is such a bad thing not to act rash. It's not like they will be able to do anything anyway.

Kinnock's resignation immediately after the '92 election saw a Labour landslide at the next one.  Michael Howard resigned within days of the 2005 election, having won less seats than Corbyn, and the Tories formed the government five years later.  Corbyn resigning is not a rash act, it's the sensible and honourable thing to do.  He has led his party to a very damaging defeat which has resulted in a large number of good people losing their seats in Parliament.  Hanging on is self indulgent madness.

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26 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

  The future of the Labour Party is nothing to do with him now so he should fall on his sword immediately.

Sadly I think he thinks it does and momentum won't want to lose the..... momentum 

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26 minutes ago, bobvale said:

And both of those people leaving led to a defeat at the next election. He stated that he's staying on a few months and I don't see why that is such a bad thing not to act rash. It's not like they will be able to do anything anyway.

PMs questions?

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18 hours ago, bobvale said:

Do you believe that Brexit and the remain/ leave split will still be an option at the next general election. I imagine that the liberals may try to push to re-join (not that the EU would want us back) but I would definately hope that in 5 years and with such a huge majority we could at least put Brexit behind us all. The last we want is another election with boris saying lets get Brexit done and I mean it this time.

Do you really think Boris will get brexit done in the next five years? This whole thing is going to rumble on for generations. 

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I really do not know but I know what you mean. I think that after the end of January it will stop being such an issue as many will believe that we are finally out at that date.

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It seems totally obvious to me........ Corbyn should stay on as leader for the next five years, swing even further left to complete his 'socialist project' that the electorate so clearly liked...job done! 

Meanwhile in the REAL world, I have to say (thankfully) that Corbyn in particular, but also many of his London-centric cronies are clueless about the working class. Purity politics always has, and IMO, always will repel the average voter.  Labour (certainly Corbyn and Jon Lansdown and the  Momentum exponents of student politics as Alan Johnson called them) don't understand that. As a very sensible Labour MP, Caroline Flint put it; "What is the point of the Labour party if we don't respect and represent working class voices? How can Labour ever win them back if it focuses on traitors not converts?" Strong words indeed, but ones that Labour should heed closely  if harbours any hopes of taking back some of the centre ground that it has so carelessly given away during the last two elections under the Corbynistas. After all, it takes a certain amount of blind-sided pig-ignorance to lose as many votes as Corbyn has manged to do!

A Doncaster businessman described the amazing community flood relief effort as "the spirit of Brexit".  In this, He went on; "We're far from the seat of power and can't rely on anyone so we look after ourselves."  As a total contrast to that, Sophie Wilson, the losing Momentum Labour candidate for Rother Valley, when asked how she'd help flood victims, replied (and check this out if you don't believe me) "First we must address climate change."  If anything shows that Momentum just doesn't get-it this damning, emotionless, far from reality and stuff the people statement says it all and shows why Labour has no hope unless it moves more centrist! It has lost EVERY general election for 50 years apart from 3 victories by.........you know who? And Momentum & the Corbynistas can't even mention his name with choking!

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11 hours ago, Heatwave said:

I've never read so much rubbish on this site - and I've read a great deal if you consider the outpourings from the likes of REP.

Let's take the 'no money' point first; it was a poor attempt at a joke along the lines of the one the Labour politician (can't remember his name) made about Corbyn in front of his Tory supporting mates who then proceeded to make political capital with it.

Of course, that's what politicians, especially Tory politicians, do - they're opportunists. That's why they couldn't believe their luck when a global financial crisis happened on Gordon Brown's watch. It was easy to snipe from the sidelines and wait for the election - I'd like to have seen what Cameron would have done. Oh but we did didn't we? Ten years of austerity, mostly needless as it happens as Boris blows everything that was saved on a post election giveaway.

As to the EU, let's not forget they attempted to protect the British economy during the ERM fallout in 1992. All the EU member states were as vulnerable as we were in 2008 and given the interconnectedness of the world economy no one was immune. Yes, our leaving the EU leaves them with a problem as we were a net contributor, but it's not insurmountable - their 27 nations act in solidarity with one another when the going gets tough. Now we're all on our own who is going to help us out? Uncle Donald, mister America First? I doubt it hugely.

Like you, I can't agree with everything he's written. But it's not all "rubbish" is it?  Take the no money point; there wasn't any left. The politician you can't remember is John Ashworth, shadow health secretary and the problem is that he what he said has proven to be correct.  Corbyn was clearly toxic on most doorsteps and one of the biggest problems for Labour. The ERM was of course, the forerunner to the Euro--and thank God we didn't join it!

 You, I'm afraid, are doing what most Labour apologists are doing, and that is blaming everyone and everything apart from the people at whose door the real blame should be laid.  However, I am personally very pleased with that state of affairs. As long as Labour do not acknolwedge the obvious truth that they've abandoned their heartland working-class voter, they will continue to to be irrelevant for the next 50 years!  See my post above for the Tony Blair reference.

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He said Ms Phillips was "really talented", but added: "I want someone who actually has been really solidly involved in the development of existing policy " McDonnell"

 

that's precisely why I would go for her.... because she hasn't been involved in present policy..... We are going to get the same tripe trotted out by a different clone.... these idiots will never learn.

at the next election they will increase their vote share and probably seat count with the same crap they spouted this time and claim it's a victory, even though they haven't won, and hail what a great policy it is after presenting it 3 times and failing to be elected so go with it on the 4th occasion and lose again. 

jezza claims he won the argument..... Labour is in intensive care.... possibly palliative care..... and the loser is bouncing into downing street without a scratch on him..... what the hell did he win? Early retirement for 60 MPs and a couple of hundred support staff?

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He won the arguement that austerity must end and that public services need money. There is a thing called the overington window and it is very interesting how labour under Corbyn has moved that. Most of labours policys were very popular when people were asked by the people who make polls but I think they looked past this due to Brexit and not liking jeremy because of jews and the ira.

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9 minutes ago, bobvale said:

He won the arguement that austerity must end and that public services need money. There is a thing called the overington window and it is very interesting how labour under Corbyn has moved that. Most of labours policys were very popular when people were asked by the people who make polls but I think they looked past this due to Brexit and not liking jeremy because of jews and the ira.

Popular with the Labour party and their Twitter hoards perhaps.... they tried them last time and promised to honour the referendum... and failed.... but claimed they won.

Mobilising youth is all well and good until they leave their safe spaces and live in the real world away from the bank of mum and dad, start earning decent money and watch it get snatched away because the fairy tail they were fed is bankrupt.

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no, I think the polls were asked about people across the partys, not just in labour. Nationalising the trains, urgent action on the environment, great broadband for all (not sure about it being free though), and more.

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