Brexit again...

[mr.hobblesworth]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more than 3 days to scrutinise a 100,000 word document that has been written under the direction of a duplicitous liar and that could impact on millions of people for many many years.

[philpvfc]

I do as nearly all the document has not been changed.

[Davebrad]

2 hours ago, philpvfc said:

https://nyebevannews.co.uk/swinson-fails-to-declare-family-company-was-given-3-5m-euro-by-the-european-union/

Who says politicians don’t get paid a fortune?

They May ONLY get £80k pa as a salary but they get so many benefits at the cost of the tax payer.

And they can’t go through a 100 page mandate in 3 days!

<ovf censored> useless.

Well what do they spend their salary on? their expenses cover their homes-London,  constituency, any decorating, contents, food, transport-London- constituency, staff expenses, consumables, even taxi fares!!!

[Paul6754]

18 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

HAHAHAHA.

Why should we?

Because  it's the right and most sensible thing to do rather than gamble with the future of the vast majority of people in the UK and indeed the Union itself.

Rule Britannia doesn't Rule the waves and hasn't done for a long, long time and when you wake up to this reality it will be too late, the damage will have been done.

[For Us All]

On 25/10/2019 at 16:19, Bycarsbill said:

Because unfortunately 17.4m voters said we should leave and that was more than said we shouldn't leave--it's called democracy however imperfect the system may be. And sadly, that's why we are where we are currently!

"I haven't left Labour,Labour has left me.Reneged on manifesto promises to leave the EU and deserted those millions of Leave supporters in Leave areas who believed promises and will now punish them in a general election".

Kate Hoey

[Andyregs]

18 hours ago, geosname said:

Well obviously I didn't understand...... still not sure I do.... but here goes.

One primary vote one secondary vote for 3 options?

Remain...... no deal....... deal?

If 1 option gets a majority on the primary choice no secondary choice considered?

In that scenario leave would lose... the vote is split

If.... only the lowest vote eliminated and secondary choice counted....... no deal gets eliminated.

Remain voters would vote for deal in a very high proportion as the second choice...... no deal voters would also vote for deal.

Deal wins?....... because remainers wouldn't want no deal and leavers wouldn't vote to remain..... heavily weighted for leave to win.

If my understanding above is correct I would reject the idea because of bias... in favour of remain in the first scenario and in favour of leave in the second.

That was my train of thought initially but I found myself standing on the platform waiting for a replacement bus service heading in the opposite direction...... again I could have totally missed the points.

If a majority votes for one option, it doesn’t split the vote. You can count the other votes but it wouldn’t matter because they couldn’t get a majority. You have totally misunderstood the whole thing.

17 hours ago, geosname said:

Here is the working out bit.....

30M vote

15M remain... 7M no deal...... 8M deal

Secondary option counted after no deal eliminated.

15M remain...... 30M deal.

That's assuming the secondary choice would be as follows.......

Remain... deal... because if you want to remain deal is the best of 2 bad options.

No deal... deal... because if you want to leave deal is the only option

Deal... no deal... because if you want to leave no deal is the only option.

Assuming of course that ballot papers are classed as spoiled and not counted if no second choice is indicated.

Again I could have totally misunderstood. 

Your maths is terrible. 30 million vote but by the second option there is now 45 million voters?? 

30 million voters. 14 for remain, 10 for a deal and 6 for no deal. No deal get eliminated. Let’s assume those voters had deal as second choice. It’s now 14 million remain and 16 million deal. No split vote and deal wins. 

[geosname]

4 hours ago, Andyregs said:

If a majority votes for one option, it doesn’t split the vote. You can count the other votes but it wouldn’t matter because they couldn’t get a majority. You have totally misunderstood the whole thing.

Your maths is terrible. 30 million vote but by the second option there is now 45 million voters?? 

30 million voters. 14 for remain, 10 for a deal and 6 for no deal. No deal get eliminated. Let’s assume those voters had deal as second choice. It’s now 14 million remain and 16 million deal. No split vote and deal wins. 

That's where I got derailed...... I included all the second votes not just the eliminated option..... silly of me, obvious really..... wood for the trees moment.

Personally, if we go the multiple question route, I would, I think, prefer a simpler option of 2 different questions.

Remain or leave being the primary option..... if remain wins it's done we remain.... if leave wins we count all the secondary option votes for deal or no deal...... eliminating all ballot papers with a single choice as spoiled and invalid.

It cuts the voting choices from 5 to 4 and everyone's secondary choice is counted, not just the eliminated, if needed.

Simply put..... everyone's vote is counted on the primary question of leave or remain...... if the secondary question is needed everyone's vote is counted..... eliminating the possible arguments about people not voting for a particular option..... giving a clear statement of what all voters want and if leave win how all voters want it to happen.

It does not alleviate the problem of having a second referendum before the first is enacted.

[geosname]

6 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Because  it's the right and most sensible thing to do rather than gamble with the future of the vast majority of people in the UK and indeed the Union itself.

Rule Britannia doesn't Rule the waves and hasn't done for a long, long time and when you wake up to this reality it will be too late, the damage will have been done.

Is it more or less of a gamble than voting a none politician into the Whitehouse? 

Selling arms to unstable countries?

Trading with countries with appalling human rights?

Even Canute didn't rule the waves.

What would have happend if Columbus or the Mayflower hadn't taken a gamble?

Brexit is a gamble, a big gamble, I don't like the odds, especially as half the country expect it to fail before it's started..... a certain path to failure is the belief you won't succeed..... it's certainly not something I would put money on.... but people have the right to choose.

A pox on the idiot who initiated the idea...... a curse on those who voted in favour of holding the referendum,  promised to honour the result, enacted article 50 and play party politics with such a devisive seed..... and especially the ones who think you can ask the masses then ignore their voice.

[Andyregs]

9 hours ago, geosname said:

That's where I got derailed...... I included all the second votes not just the eliminated option..... silly of me, obvious really..... wood for the trees moment.

Personally, if we go the multiple question route, I would, I think, prefer a simpler option of 2 different questions.

Remain or leave being the primary option..... if remain wins it's done we remain.... if leave wins we count all the secondary option votes for deal or no deal...... eliminating all ballot papers with a single choice as spoiled and invalid.

It cuts the voting choices from 5 to 4 and everyone's secondary choice is counted, not just the eliminated, if needed.

Simply put..... everyone's vote is counted on the primary question of leave or remain...... if the secondary question is needed everyone's vote is counted..... eliminating the possible arguments about people not voting for a particular option..... giving a clear statement of what all voters want and if leave win how all voters want it to happen.

It does not alleviate the problem of having a second referendum before the first is enacted.

What if someone wants a deal but does not want to risk no deal. Your way has less choice for voters and may push them towards the safer option of remain. Ranked voting gives people a crystal clear voice. No having to vote tactically. You’re assuming leave voters will want to leave regardless of outcome. 

[geosname]

The priority choice is leave or remain...... everyone gets to vote on it.

If remain win it's over..... we remain.

If leave win everyone gets their vote counted on how we leave.

Sounds far more democratic to me.

I'm not assuming anything, everyone gets to choose their best option in the circumstances.... in all decisions.

Again I don't support a second referendum until the first has been enacted.... because I can't see an end until it is.

[Andyregs]

33 minutes ago, geosname said:

The priority choice is leave or remain...... everyone gets to vote on it.

If remain win it's over..... we remain.

If leave win everyone gets their vote counted on how we leave.

Sounds far more democratic to me.

I'm not assuming anything, everyone gets to choose their best option in the circumstances.... in all decisions.

Again I don't support a second referendum until the first has been enacted.... because I can't see an end until it is.

Despite all your concerns it won’t be fair to leave, or it won’t be democratic, your option is most likely to split the leave vote and give less choice. It will give you something to complain about at least. 

[geosname]

The first option everyone vote on is leave or remain.

The second option (if leave wins) everyone gets to choose deal or no deal..... even the remainers.

[geosname]

2 minutes ago, Andyregs said:

Despite all your concerns it won’t be fair to leave, or it won’t be democratic, your option is most likely to split the leave vote and give less choice. It will give you something to complain about at least. 

How does it split the vote?

Everyone gets to vote on a straight question.... leave or remain. (30M)

The second option only comes into effect if leave wins.... if it does everyone, including remain voters, gets to choose deal or no deal. (30M)

Everyone gets a say in IF we leave...... and everyone gets a say on HOW we leave, if we leave.

Exactly the same choice.... exactly the same questions.... everyone's votes count.

I still don't think a 2nd referendum should be held.

[Andyregs]

6 minutes ago, geosname said:

How does it split the vote?

Everyone gets to vote on a straight question.... leave or remain. (30M)

The second option only comes into effect if leave wins.... if it does everyone, including remain voters, gets to choose deal or no deal. (30M)

Everyone gets a say in IF we leave...... and everyone gets a say on HOW we leave, if we leave.

Exactly the same choice.... exactly the same questions.... everyone's votes count.

I still don't think a 2nd referendum should be held.

I’ve already explained. Some may want a deal but want to avoid a no deal at all costs. I’m not sure how it’s not obvious how the other option give a far clearer picture of whet people want. Prob jut arguing for the sake of it.

[philpvfc]

Don’t know why you’re debating it, we are not having another referendum.