Brexit again...

[Davebrad]

32 minutes ago, TheSage said:

The job of MPs and of Parliament is to act in the best interests of the country.

The majority voted for leave. We know that. And if a deal can be arranged that doesn't crash and burn our economy and harm the UK then fine let's do it. I don't want it, no. I still think remain was the best option and the shenanigans of the last few years have only strengthened my views. But if we negotiate some sort of agreement/customs union, perhaps that's the best way forward. No Dealers will scream no but if you want to unite the country you have to meet in the middle. You have to. Remainers wouldn't like it because we're leaving but at least we are not making everyone poorer and trashing the economy. We could if necessary have a further vote down the line as Wilson did to see if we're all happy with the outcome.

People talk about Project Fear but most of it is coming true. The pound has tanked. The economy is on the brink of recession. Car manufacturing is at it's lowest point since 2001. House repossessions are as bad as they've been for three years. Personal debt is at record levels. Foreign inward investment has tailed off. Companies have left and are leaving the UK and setting up business in EU countries. These things have happened. You might not like it and they won't make headlines in the press but they are the facts of the matter. Warnings made are coming true. Read Operation Yellowhammer, the government's own paper (not mine), the one that they won't publish in case it puts the fear of god into people.

I too don't support anyone being harangued or harassed, whoever they are, but if you close down debate and shut Parliament you will get a reaction. You might not realise how serious many people think it is. A bloke with a dodgy moustache did the same thing in the thirties when he purported to be doing what the people wanted. It's a slippery slope. It's no wonder very many respected statesmen are aghast, on both sides of the debate.

 

to be honest I can't see the country/union re-uniting, the divide is too big...both sides are entrenched.

[geosname]

48 minutes ago, TheSage said:

The job of MPs and of Parliament is to act in the best interests of the country.

The majority voted for leave. We know that. And if a deal can be arranged that doesn't crash and burn our economy and harm the UK then fine let's do it. I don't want it, no. I still think remain was the best option and the shenanigans of the last few years have only strengthened my views. But if we negotiate some sort of agreement/customs union, perhaps that's the best way forward. No Dealers will scream no but if you want to unite the country you have to meet in the middle. You have to. Remainers wouldn't like it because we're leaving but at least we are not making everyone poorer and trashing the economy. We could if necessary have a further vote down the line as Wilson did to see if we're all happy with the outcome.

People talk about Project Fear but most of it is coming true. The pound has tanked. The economy is on the brink of recession. Car manufacturing is at it's lowest point since 2001. House repossessions are as bad as they've been for three years. Personal debt is at record levels. Foreign inward investment has tailed off. Companies have left and are leaving the UK and setting up business in EU countries. These things have happened. You might not like it and they won't make headlines in the press but they are the facts of the matter. Warnings made are coming true. Read Operation Yellowhammer, the government's own paper (not mine), the one that they won't publish in case it puts the fear of god into people.

I too don't support anyone being harangued or harassed, whoever they are, but if you close down debate and shut Parliament you will get a reaction. You might not realise how serious many people think it is. A bloke with a dodgy moustache did the same thing in the thirties when he purported to be doing what the people wanted. It's a slippery slope. It's no wonder very many respected statesmen are aghast, on both sides of the debate.

 

Sadly sage I don't think there is any middle ground..... what bit there may have been has been hacked away by both sides to shore up their own positions.

It's either leave or remain...... coming out a bit and staying in bits won't satisfy anyone..... both sides want the whole hog now the politicians have spent 3 years cooking it

[Fosse69]

11 minutes ago, geosname said:

Sadly sage I don't think there is any middle ground..... what bit there may have been has been hacked away by both sides to shore up their own positions.

It's either leave or remain...... coming out a bit and staying in bits won't satisfy anyone..... both sides want the whole hog now the politicians have spent 3 years cooking it

We saw what happened in Germany, and after WW2 changed their electoral system to prevent control by minorities.. But  the UK and  USA kept the winner take all adversarial systems, we are where we are. The Germans I think banned referendums of their own accord.

[geosname]

3 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

We saw what happened in Germany, and after WW2 changed their electoral system to prevent control by minorities.. But  the UK and  USA kept the winner take all adversarial systems, we are where we are.

It's no more or less of a shambles than some European countries mate..... I don't like it much, but that's more to do with the people in it, but I don't see a much better option available.

[Fosse69]

3 minutes ago, geosname said:

It's no more or less of a shambles than some European countries mate..... I don't like it much, but that's more to do with the people in it, but I don't see a much better option available.

But only about 100 to 150 seats change hands, most peoples votes are worthless.

[Jacko51]

2 hours ago, For Us All said:

You couldn't make it up.

There you go again.  Give it a rest man.

[Jacko51]

1 hour ago, Davebrad said:

to be honest I can't see the country/union re-uniting, the divide is too big...both sides are entrenched.

This is sadly true, Dave.  It will take a bloody big bandage to mend the crap of the last three years.

[Jacko51]

1 hour ago, geosname said:

Sadly sage I don't think there is any middle ground..... what bit there may have been has been hacked away by both sides to shore up their own positions.

It's either leave or remain...... coming out a bit and staying in bits won't satisfy anyone..... both sides want the whole hog now the politicians have spent 3 years cooking it

May's deal was clearly the middle ground because neither side got exactly what they wanted.

[Regal Beagle]

5 hours ago, TheSage said:

You better than the rest of us.

Johnson and his mates are serial liars. The type of people you say you abhor. I don't think they know the difference any more between a lie and the truth. They need to be held to account. Closing Parliament for nearly 5 weeks is an appalling attack on our parliamentary sovereignty and deliberately aimed to stifle debate and undermine MPs rights to debate and discuss government business. It really doesn't matter whose side you are on. Everyone should be outraged by this course of action. 

They haven't voted on a recess yet. Normally the closure is for 3-4 days not 5 weeks. This is a very important matter and the Commons should be sitting.

It's no longer the Conservative and Unionist Party but the Conservative and UKIP Party, going further and further towards the right, with a propaganda machine that would be the envy of a banana republic. 

If JRM is so keen on representing his constituents he should be on the streets as well. They voted to remain. Square that circle.

 

You've got nothing of any substance what so ever. You announce your opinion (which is extreme and biased) as though its fact despite not even attempting to back it up. 

And I will say it once more for you...you have no legitimacy in talking about what is and is not constitutional or democratic given you've spent 3 years arguing anti democratic and unconstitutional points.

This prorogation outrage is FALSE sage  no one believes it. It isnt what you say it is. It's not blocking anything and in real terms is reducing parliament working days by a maximum of 5. Perfectly in line with previous years. 

You are pretending to care because you want to stop brexit. Just admit it, we are all adults here, allegedly. 

[Regal Beagle]

23 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

May's deal was clearly the middle ground because neither side got exactly what they wanted.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM. How can remainers lose a referendum and expect to get what they want?! Please tell me because I dont understand. 

May's deal meant that no one gets what they voted for.

 

[Fosse69]

48 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

THIS IS THE PROBLEM. How can remainers lose a referendum and expect to get what they want?! Please tell me because I dont understand. 

May's deal meant that no one gets what they voted for.

 

It is called compromise, we live in a country with stupid electoral procedures.

[Regal Beagle]

12 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

It is called compromise, we live in a country with stupid electoral procedures.

It is called democracy fosse. The majority of people dont want to be in the eu. Why should there be a compromise on that and why is it the losers that get to decide it? 

Its gross. 

[Jacko51]

15 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

It is called compromise, we live in a country with stupid electoral procedures.

Compromise is a word that has left our vocabulary.  The fact that over 48% of those who voted wanted to remain in the EU suggests that some form of compromise might be a decent plan.  And I don't mean staying in the EU, I mean leaving in the way we were promised in the referendum campaign - with a deal.

This is an interesting view of what we should be doing.

"There were more than 16 million who wanted to remain. They are our neighbours, brothers and sisters who did what they passionately believe was right. In a democracy majorities may decide but everyone is of equal value.  We who are part of this narrow majority must do everything we can to reassure the Remainers. We must reach out, we must heal, we must build bridges – because it is clear that some have feelings of dismay, and of loss, and confusion."

The article goes on to say

"I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU. 

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer."

Anything wrong with that because it sounds sensible to me.

[Fosse69]

16 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

It is called democracy fosse. The majority of people dont want to be in the eu. Why should there be a compromise on that and why is it the losers that get to decide it? 

Its gross. 

If it is beyond your comprehension, so be it,. End of conversation

[Howjy04]

I’m not quite sure what compromise would be given if the result of the referendum had have been the other way round.