Brexit again...

[Fosse69]

Did you ever think that maybe the Non EU nationals that we are struggling to stop entering into the country are arriving via the EU route...getting into Europe and gaining EU passports?

 

If you doubt it then why has Germany allowed most of Asia in

Germany has one of the lowest birth rates in the world and has for many years invited guest workers in mainly from Turkey to expand/maintain their industries, having settled they become EU citizens. cannot really see many coming here for jobs.

[Paul6754]

You keep digging, you're getting in deeper.

 

Provide the information......simple......if you don't I can only conclude you don't have the evidence to back up your post.

[Guest TommyMac]

Provide the information......simple......if you don't I can only conclude you don't have the evidence to back up your post.

 

And I can only conclude you're making yourself look rather silly.

[Paul6754]

And I can only conclude you're making yourself look rather silly.

 

You are making yourself look rather silly by posting comments that you cannot back up when asked. So in response to your post 5832 and others I will give you the figures why FUA in his post didn't take into account rebates. I quote.

 

‘Let’s give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week’

This promise was so central to the leave campaign that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove repeatedly appeared on platforms with it as their main backdrop. Indeed, it was famously painted on the side of their battlebus that toured Britain.

 

It was first made by the Labour MP and co-chair of Vote Leave, Gisela Stuart, at the beginning of the campaign: “Every week we send £350m to Brussels. I’d rather that we control how to spend that money, and if I had that control I would spend it on the NHS,” she said on 15 April.

 

Why Vote Leave's £350m weekly EU cost claim is wrong

 

The £350m figure was immediately the subject of dispute. It was pointed out that it was the gross figure for the UK contribution. The £74m a week UK rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher is never sent to Brussels, which brings the figure down to £276m a week.

 

That £276m figure includes £115m spent on things such as support for farmers, aid payments to British regions and research by UK universities and companies. If those payments continue – and there have been immediate demands from, for example, Cornwall, that they must – then at the very most it would leave £161m to be diverted to the NHS.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/eu-referendum-reality-check-leave-campaign-promises

[Jacko51]

Did you ever think that maybe the Non EU nationals that we are struggling to stop entering into the country are arriving via the EU route...getting into Europe and gaining EU passports?

 

That is just daft If they have EU passports they are not non EU nationals! The fact is, more people are coming to this country from outside the EU than from inside. We have control of our borders and could prevent any of those whom we did not want? Why haven't we?

[Regal Beagle]

Not true. We should control our borders for non EU immigration but nobody seems to enforce that control. We are not part of Schengen so you can’t just walk into the country.

 

Thats a big discriminatory don't you think?

[Guest TommyMac]

You are making yourself look rather silly by posting comments that you cannot back up when asked. So in response to your post 5832 and others I will give you the figures why FUA in his post didn't take into account rebates. I quote.

 

‘Let’s give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week’

This promise was so central to the leave campaign that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove repeatedly appeared on platforms with it as their main backdrop. Indeed, it was famously painted on the side of their battlebus that toured Britain.

 

It was first made by the Labour MP and co-chair of Vote Leave, Gisela Stuart, at the beginning of the campaign: “Every week we send £350m to Brussels. I’d rather that we control how to spend that money, and if I had that control I would spend it on the NHS,” she said on 15 April.

 

Why Vote Leave's £350m weekly EU cost claim is wrong

 

The £350m figure was immediately the subject of dispute. It was pointed out that it was the gross figure for the UK contribution. The £74m a week UK rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher is never sent to Brussels, which brings the figure down to £276m a week.

 

That £276m figure includes £115m spent on things such as support for farmers, aid payments to British regions and research by UK universities and companies. If those payments continue – and there have been immediate demands from, for example, Cornwall, that they must – then at the very most it would leave £161m to be diverted to the NHS.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/eu-referendum-reality-check-leave-campaign-promises

 

You're wearing out that shovel.

[Regal Beagle]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it but I would suggest that opinion is very much in the minority.

 

So if the people who are choosing a representative are choosing someone who tells lies to either get elected or lies to make a point or push a policy through then it doesn't auger well for the success or future of that democracy, its common sense. Honesty in the democratic process is one of the traits that separates the UK from corrupt failing countries around the world.

 

https://democracywatch.ca/honesty-in-politics-is-the-best-policy-and-so-it-should-be-required-by-law/

 

https://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2013/05/democracy_is_founded_on_honest.html

 

 

 

My point was Farage and Johnson made reducing immigration by two thirds a central campaign promise of the leave campaign hence they lied cause they knew it couldn't be done just like you know. I'm pleased you agree with me on this point. Farage and Johnson lied, period and many Brexiteers bought it hook line and sinker.

 

Seriously? Get your head out of the sand.

 

We can control our borders when we leave, what on earth are you talking about?

 

It's not opinion, it's definitions.

 

You can't simply change the definition of a word to suit your political view point. You might have an opinion, I have a cold hard fact supported by whichever decent dictionary you want to use.

 

The fact you post an op ed which is proposing a law to ensure politics is honest tells us two things....

 

1. It isn't honest already (Seems like it's not just the leave campaign that tells lies)

2. It isn't illegal currently

 

So you've managed to prove me right with that link.

[Jacko51]

Thats a big discriminatory don't you think?

 

Not at all. I was simply pointing out that we DO control our borders, contrary to what you were saying. If you want immigration reduced the easiest way to reduce it is by controlling immigration from outside the EU. This is not discriminatory, it is simply a fact.

[geosname]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it but I would suggest that opinion is very much in the minority.

 

So if the people who are choosing a representative are choosing someone who tells lies to either get elected or lies to make a point or push a policy through then it doesn't auger well for the success or future of that democracy, its common sense. Honesty in the democratic process is one of the traits that separates the UK from corrupt failing countries around the world.

 

https://democracywatch.ca/honesty-in-politics-is-the-best-policy-and-so-it-should-be-required-by-law/

 

https://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2013/05/democracy_is_founded_on_honest.html

 

 

 

My point was Farage and Johnson made reducing immigration by two thirds a central campaign promise of the leave campaign hence they lied cause they knew it couldn't be done just like you know. I'm pleased you agree with me on this point. Farage and Johnson lied, period and many Brexiteers bought it hook line and sinker.

 

Has any political party fulfilled all it's manifesto pledges after being elected?

Has any political party not used the whips to bring it's members into line?

The truth has nothing to do with Campaigning/elections... That's not an opinion.

Some vote because they don't like rich people being rich.

Some vote because they don't like socialism.

Some vote they way they have always voted or the way their families have always voted.

Everyone votes on their opinion not the truth.... because you believe something, however fervently, it doesn't make it true.

[Paul6754]

You're wearing out that shovel.

 

Nice one but I guess you find the facts unpalatable.

[Paul6754]

Seriously? Get your head out of the sand.

 

We can control our borders when we leave, what on earth are you talking about?

 

It's not opinion, it's definitions.

 

You can't simply change the definition of a word to suit your political view point. You might have an opinion, I have a cold hard fact supported by whichever decent dictionary you want to use.

 

The fact you post an op ed which is proposing a law to ensure politics is honest tells us two things....

 

1. It isn't honest already (Seems like it's not just the leave campaign that tells lies)

2. It isn't illegal currently

 

So you've managed to prove me right with that link.

 

The UK can control it's borders to non-EU immigration just as Poland, Hungary and Slovakia do, it just doesn't have the MP's with the guts to do it.

 

The rest is total garbage.

[Paul6754]

Has any political party fulfilled all it's manifesto pledges after being elected?

 

I'm talking about campaign promises which are lies not about fulfilling all manifesto pledges.

 

The truth has nothing to do with Campaigning/elections... That's not an opinion.

 

The truth should have everything to do with Campaigning/elections

 

Has any political party not used the whips to bring it's members into line?

Some vote because they don't like rich people being rich.

Some vote because they don't like socialism.

Some vote they way they have always voted or the way their families have always voted.

Everyone votes on their opinion not the truth.... because you believe something, however fervently, it doesn't make it true.

 

Unsure what you're trying to get at there Geo.

[geosname]

I'm talking about campaign promises which are lies not about fulfilling all manifesto pledges.

 

 

 

The truth should have everything to do with Campaigning/elections

 

 

 

Unsure what you're trying to get at there Geo.

 

Campaign pledges are the promises they use to get the vote, those promises are usually taken from their manifesto..... we will do this that or the other etc and they campaign on those pledges.

 

It never has and probably never will. People tend to believe what they want to believe, which has nothing to do with truth. Elections are about winning, it's not a congenial debate, it's a battlefield, it's polite adversarial warfare.... and even if you win and gain the power it has to be defended by whipping your own troops into the party line.

 

I'm getting at the fact that a proportion of voters cast their vote not on truth.... perhaps more along the lines of the lesser of two evils.

 

Democracy is great..... just spoiled by humans and reality.

[whotobeakiller]

The referendum itself is the purest example of a democratic vote ever.

 

The way in which up to 48% of the country reacted to the result is not a good example of democracy however.

 

Go and find a definition of democracy and tell me where it says honest is a part of it?

 

Also, what immigration promise was a lie? The nhs bus argument is so feeble. Give it up.

 

Regal, I realize you could well be on a wind up but the two major referendum campaign promises were lies, 350m to the HHS was a lie and the immigration promise was a lie.

 

 

 

I've no doubt they are intelligent but many, especially the older generation, bought the Farage/Johnson rhetoric hook line and sinker. Farage himself freely admits he had no idea what Brexit entailed instead preferring to dismiss it with words like "Easy, a cinch".

 

 

 

Honesty is a prerequisite of democracy and the widest and most truthful information should be given to the electorate else who knows what people are voting for, I'm surprise anyone would make such a comment. If you state "honesty should be an important trait for a successful politician" then honesty is central to a successful democracy.

 

The UK's process of democracy is what separated us from the lawless, currupt and failing countries around the world. The UK is a bastion of democracy, the world looks up to the UK in its upholding of democracy, the EU referendum was not a good example of democracy, an electorate swayed and misled by lies.

 

The UK can control it's borders to non-EU immigration just as Poland, Hungary and Slovakia do, it just doesn't have the MP's with the guts to do it.

 

The rest is total garbage.

 

Staying in the EU means we run the risk ofhaving non EU economic migration as well as run the risk of schengen which would mean anyone could just tunnel theiir way here from Europe. Think of Asia and Mainland Europe as one big superstste because thats the way we are headed as has been shown by Merkels open door policy to working men "refugees"