Brexit again...

[For Us All]

£350m a week for the NHS?

Immigration will be controlled?

We can now trade with the 'rest of the world' as though we've been prevented from doing so as EU members?

EU laws are imposed on us as though we had no input into forming them?

The EU is undemocratic and ruled by unelected politicians?

There's a few big fat Leave campaign porkies for starters.

 

The EU is run by 28 unelected commissioners,who cannot be held to account.The president of the commission Jean-Claude Juncker and Martin Shultz,the parliament president were the only candidates on their ballot papers when they both joined with no opposition.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

The EU is run by 28 unelected commissioners,who cannot be held to account.The president of the commission Jean-Claude Juncker and Martin Shultz,the parliament president were the only candidates on their ballot papers when they both joined with no opposition.

The commissioners are appointed by the member states elected governments, they are unelected in the same way our cabinet members are unelected.

It's an imperfect system, I'll grant you, but it is no less democratic than our own government and considering our significantly hereditary and partially appointed second chamber arguably even more so.

[Regal Beagle]

£350m a week for the NHS?

Immigration will be controlled?

We can now trade with the 'rest of the world' as though we've been prevented from doing so as EU members?

EU laws are imposed on us as though we had no input into forming them?

The EU is undemocratic and ruled by unelected politicians?

There's a few big fat Leave campaign porkies for starters.

 

I'll give you the NHS one, even though it was a bit of sales puff.

 

The rest is utter garbage and you've pretty much just made them up.

[Regal Beagle]

The commissioners are appointed by the member states elected governments, they are unelected in the same way our cabinet members are unelected.

It's an imperfect system, I'll grant you, but it is no less democratic than our own government and considering our significantly hereditary and partially appointed second chamber arguably even more so.

 

Arguably even more democratic for who?

 

Not for UK residents. We are one of the biggest net contributors to the EU yet per capita are one of the most under represented in the EU.

 

A lot of what goes on in the EU is not public and no one actually knows who is accountable and for what.

 

I agree with the point about hereditary peers though. An imperfect system and we have the power to improve it. Unlike the EU where we are unable to improve it and not only is it imperfect but it's actually a sinking ship.

[Paul6754]

All Mps have been told to deliver brexit... whether they want it or not, whether there constituents want it or not.... that's democracy in action.

 

Geo, I would be fine with that post if it were not that the Brexit vote was based on a bunch of lies and drum beating. It's now becoming apparent the warnings the UK will be poorer post Brexit will likely be correct, I doubt 37% of the electorate knew that when they cast their vote.

 

There is a very strong case for a 2nd Referendum, one based on truths and probabilities, the truths being 350m for the NHS and a large reduction in the rate of immigration are not deliverable, one of the probabilities being the UK as a whole will be poorer post Brexit.

[Paul6754]

If a no deal is what it takes to leave the EU then so it should be. That’s democracy.

 

So the UK exits Europe and loses all the trade deals which come with EU membership, so the UK has to negotiate trade deals with many countries around the world but it doesn't have anywhere near enough experienced Trade Negotiators to do the job. That's not democracy that's just not sensible.

[Paul6754]

On the other hand why do you think we can't do the same or better trade deals with the rest of the world rather than a block with just 450 odd million people?

 

FUA, simple economics, the little guy usually has less buying power and has to make more concessions.

[Paul6754]

Yes I do.

 

So please explain.

 

If you want to scaremonger you can say "a block of 450 odd million people"

 

In reality, they aren't a block, they are a collection of nations with different aims, different goods, different trades and if they don't fit in with industries that the EU want to protect then bad luck.

 

If it was a country of 450m people v a county of 65m people then I'd agree with you. But it isn't.

 

RB, split hairs all you want but it's a market of 450 million consumers/customers.

 

We can be a hell of a lot more efficient, a hell of a lot more flexible and we don't have to worry about price fixing produce from markets across the other side of the continent.

 

And we may be a hell of a lot more inefficient, eg.,we may have to carry out different processes to satisfy USA, China and EU regulations whereas being a member of the EU ensures access to all three markets, a case in point is testing of Pharmaceutical products.

 

Why is euroscepticism rising in almost every single EU nation? You can't blame the daily mail or the evil made up figures on the side of 1 bus for that.

 

It's because it isn't working and people are starting to see it now.

 

On the other hand, the only excuse anyone has for us not being able to agree competitive trade deals is "the EU is bigger" - Means nothing. The EU is rubbish.

 

No one is saying the EU is perfect but there is no doubt the UK has enjoyed tremendous growth and an increase in it's standard of living since being a member, a standard of living that the majority of reports/experts say will be compromised post Brexit.

 

The UK will more than likely re-negotiate competitive trade deals with other countries post Brexit but who will the deals be more favorable to, a country of 60m or for example China, a country of >1 billion people.

 

There is no such thing as free trade, there are tariffs, subsidies and concessions, the little guy usually comes off worse.

[Paul6754]

Well I trust that the remain vote can't go to Corbyn as they seem absolutely obsessed with the economy above all else.

 

After National Security and Public Health the economy is the next most important issue, it pays for the first two and everything else so it should rank right up there!!

[geosname]

Geo, I would be fine with that post if it were not that the Brexit vote was based on a bunch of lies and drum beating. It's now becoming apparent the warnings the UK will be poorer post Brexit will likely be correct, I doubt 37% of the electorate knew that when they cast their vote.

 

There is a very strong case for a 2nd Referendum, one based on truths and probabilities, the truths being 350m for the NHS and a large reduction in the rate of immigration are not deliverable, one of the probabilities being the UK as a whole will be poorer post Brexit.

Paul.

Politicians lie, they tell you what they think you want to hear to get your vote.

Given the simplicity of the question asked... stay as we are or make a change... it's possible a number of voters didn't like the way they were and voted accordingly.

[geosname]

Geo, I would be fine with that post if it were not that the Brexit vote was based on a bunch of lies and drum beating. It's now becoming apparent the warnings the UK will be poorer post Brexit will likely be correct, I doubt 37% of the electorate knew that when they cast their vote.

 

There is a very strong case for a 2nd Referendum, one based on truths and probabilities, the truths being 350m for the NHS and a large reduction in the rate of immigration are not deliverable, one of the probabilities being the UK as a whole will be poorer post Brexit.

There is never a strong case for a second referendum based on the fact you don't like the result of the first.

The people were asked a very simple question... in or out... they voted out.... so out it should be.... they weren't asked about hard or soft deals.

In my opinion none, or very few, of the politicians expected an out vote and were/are totally unprepared for the answer they got.

Don't blame the people for the answer they gave.

A second referendum should have been called after the first result was known...

What sort of deal.

Hard.

Soft.

None

I suspect that if the original choice had been extended to...

Stay in.

Exit soft deal.

Exit hard deal.

Exit no deal.

The remainers would have walked it.

Should we have a second election because less people voted for the winning party than voted for it?

[Regal Beagle]

So please explain.

 

 

 

RB, split hairs all you want but it's a market of 450 million consumers/customers.

 

 

 

And we may be a hell of a lot more inefficient, eg.,we may have to carry out different processes to satisfy USA, China and EU regulations whereas being a member of the EU ensures access to all three markets, a case in point is testing of Pharmaceutical products.

 

 

 

No one is saying the EU is perfect but there is no doubt the UK has enjoyed tremendous growth and an increase in it's standard of living since being a member, a standard of living that the majority of reports/experts say will be compromised post Brexit.

 

The UK will more than likely re-negotiate competitive trade deals with other countries post Brexit but who will the deals be more favorable to, a country of 60m or for example China, a country of >1 billion people.

 

There is no such thing as free trade, there are tariffs, subsidies and concessions, the little guy usually comes off worse.

 

I just don't buy the argument that we're the little guy.

 

China is desperate to send people to our universities, it doesn't matter what the population is people will want to trade with us.

 

Also it's a very narrow minded view to suggest that there is a winner and a loser in a trade deal. They're supposed to be mutually beneficial.

 

I think all the trade stuff is being massively over egged by those that want to reverse democracy. As if we simply cannot agree a beneficial trade deal all on our own. It's rubbish.

 

Furthermore, there were plenty of lies on the remain side and in actual fact, you are wrong about the leave side being lied too in terms of the economy. The vast majority of people voted based on immigration and sovereignty. I've said it a million times.

 

The debate always gets dragged back to the economy as it's the only front that the remoaners can pretend to have won on. All their facts and figures are made up though.

[Thevalefan]

I seriously despair with what your coming out with Regal Beagle.

 

It's frightening how you can come to all these thoughts and conclusions when all evidence, almost everything, suggests the contrary.

 

You are an emotional voter who puts facts behind his own personal opinion.

 

What good will it be controlling our own immigration and supposedly becoming a sovereign nation if our economy is damaged to the point beyond repair? All is will happen is younger generations like myself will be working to repair the damage done by ignorant and selfish old fools like yourself.

 

China is desperate send people our universities??? Really? You sure? Having been recently and seeing the amount of Chinese students there (at a decent uni too), most turn up - pay their fees, study and go back to China, 99% of the time. 99% of them are absolutely loaded also.

Why do they need trade deals to study here? As anyone in the world who can afford it can come and study in Britain. More international students study in other countries besides the UK. It's somewhat a myth everyone wants to come to a UK university and it's not particularly true now tuition fees are as high as they are.

 

Besides, if your anti immigration why would you want foriegn students coming and taking the advantages away from a British national born who could go and do a couse like they do at university? something like 40+% of postgraduate degrees (That's a Masters for example) are undertaken by foriegn students so it doesn't put British people in the best position for Britain. I though as logical Leave process would want to encourage more British kids into these positions so we are not relying so heavily on foriegn students as a nation.

 

Your views on trade in this regards just highlight you within this forum as being completely out your depth mate. If we were talking about quantum physics or neuroscience - do you know what I'd do, I'd not say anything as I don't know anything about it.

 

As for "the little guy", what can we offer the world that they can't get from someone else at probably a better price?? Yeah we have power and influence but not much, do you really believe we will get better trading.agreements in place than what we currently enjoy just because we are "Great Britain"?

 

Stay off Facebook (don't know why you would use it in the first place!), looks like they've well and truly captured your mind Regal!

[Thevalefan]

And before you pull me up on one tiny point and ignore the rest; more international students attend different unis in different countries collectively than just coming to the UK.

[Thevalefan]

I'll give you the NHS one, even though it was a bit of sales puff.

 

The rest is utter garbage and you've pretty much just made them up.

 

If you want to engage in a meaningful debate you can't just discredit things that happened and were said because it doesn't fit your own narrative of things. Come on.