Brexit again...

[Thevalefan]

There is never a strong case for a second referendum based on the fact you don't like the result of the first.

 

Your really missing the point.

 

I can accept anything in life but what I cannot accept is blatant lies, cheating and complete blatant misinformation being considered acceptable and the "standard" for winning political battles when the outcome is so big!

 

It's not true democracy. Saying "give the NHS £350m a week" in a country with its health service crumbling to its knees, in a country where 10+m people were admitted to hospital the year before the referendum is going to manipulate the voters who probably didn't care that much about Brexit - JUST to satisfy the needs of those telling the lies.

 

Whatever happens, Britain has had it. National divide that can never be put right.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

I keep reading comments in this thread from Brexiteers who say the remain campaign told lies. Which lies? The lies of the leave campaign have been highlighted yet even then the Brexit lemmings deny them as 'sales puff' or pretend there's some reality to them. The remain campaign, poorly conducted as it was, had no need to lie which is why the Brexit mob can't identify any. They could, however, make things up and then convince themselves it's true, they're very adept at that.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

Your really missing the point.

 

I can accept anything in life but what I cannot accept is blatant lies, cheating and complete blatant misinformation being considered acceptable and the "standard" for winning political battles when the outcome is so big!

 

It's not true democracy. Saying "give the NHS £350m a week" in a country with its health service crumbling to its knees, in a country where 10+m people were admitted to hospital the year before the referendum is going to manipulate the voters who probably didn't care that much about Brexit - JUST to satisfy the needs of those telling the lies.

 

Whatever happens, Britain has had it. National divide that can never be put right.

You shouldn't say you can accept anything and then immediately say 'but what I can't accept', it makes you sound like a Brexiteer!

I do agree though that whilst Geo has a valid point regarding politicians saying anything just to gain votes and power just pedalling blatant lies is deeply disturbing and highly anti-democratic, the sort of thing used to gain popular support in the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century and the imperialist regimes of the 19th century.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

Also, TVF, this issue causing a divided Britain is nothing new, the country has always had politicallt highly divisive issues as have many countries. These rifts often ease over time as they are consigned to the past, it's when the impasse is current and ongoing the bitterness remains.

[geosname]

Your really missing the point.

 

I can accept anything in life but what I cannot accept is blatant lies, cheating and complete blatant misinformation being considered acceptable and the "standard" for winning political battles when the outcome is so big!

 

It's not true democracy. Saying "give the NHS £350m a week" in a country with its health service crumbling to its knees, in a country where 10+m people were admitted to hospital the year before the referendum is going to manipulate the voters who probably didn't care that much about Brexit - JUST to satisfy the needs of those telling the lies.

 

Whatever happens, Britain has had it. National divide that can never be put right.

The point is politicians lie... so to decry political spouting and offer it as reason for a new vote is hypocritical.

True democracy is the will of the people... the will of the people is to leave.

[geosname]

I seriously despair with what your coming out with Regal Beagle.

 

It's frightening how you can come to all these thoughts and conclusions when all evidence, almost everything, suggests the contrary.

 

You are an emotional voter who puts facts behind his own personal opinion.

 

What good will it be controlling our own immigration and supposedly becoming a sovereign nation if our economy is damaged to the point beyond repair? All is will happen is younger generations like myself will be working to repair the damage done by ignorant and selfish old fools like yourself.

 

China is desperate send people our universities??? Really? You sure? Having been recently and seeing the amount of Chinese students there (at a decent uni too), most turn up - pay their fees, study and go back to China, 99% of the time. 99% of them are absolutely loaded also.

Why do they need trade deals to study here? As anyone in the world who can afford it can come and study in Britain. More international students study in other countries besides the UK. It's somewhat a myth everyone wants to come to a UK university and it's not particularly true now tuition fees are as high as they are.

 

Besides, if your anti immigration why would you want foriegn students coming and taking the advantages away from a British national born who could go and do a couse like they do at university? something like 40+% of postgraduate degrees (That's a Masters for example) are undertaken by foriegn students so it doesn't put British people in the best position for Britain. I though as logical Leave process would want to encourage more British kids into these positions so we are not relying so heavily on foriegn students as a nation.

 

Your views on trade in this regards just highlight you within this forum as being completely out your depth mate. If we were talking about quantum physics or neuroscience - do you know what I'd do, I'd not say anything as I don't know anything about it.

 

As for "the little guy", what can we offer the world that they can't get from someone else at probably a better price?? Yeah we have power and influence but not much, do you really believe we will get better trading.agreements in place than what we currently enjoy just because we are "Great Britain"?

 

Stay off Facebook (don't know why you would use it in the first place!), looks like they've well and truly captured your mind Regal!

Are you suggesting it's old folk who are to blame for a result everyone could participate in?

Perhaps it's just old folk who make bad decisions?

Is this the same old folk who voted us in?

I despair when people believe politicians...

Everyone (almost) is an emotional voter because there are no facts in an election. Interpretations of statistics, projections and promises come by the shed load but facts?

Again... in my opinion... the problem with the referendum wasn't the answer it was the question.

[Thevalefan]

The point is politicians lie... so to decry political spouting and offer it as reason for a new vote is hypocritical.

True democracy is the will of the people... the will of the people is to leave.

 

I agree with everything your saying but equally has there ever been a political campaign in the UK such as Brexit that has targeted so many people through misinformation in its messages using big data analytic companies and social media, even targeting from Google searches?? Complete misinformation at that too.

 

We can call is democracy, but it's a very watered down version with some powerful people pouring in the water.

[Andyregs]

Are you suggesting it's old folk who are to blame for a result everyone could participate in?

Perhaps it's just old folk who make bad decisions?

Is this the same old folk who voted us in?

I despair when people believe politicians...

Everyone (almost) is an emotional voter because there are no facts in an election. Interpretations of statistics, projections and promises come by the shed load but facts?

Again... in my opinion... the problem with the referendum wasn't the answer it was the question.

 

It’s fact that the older generations voted leave while the younger generations voted remain. Now who will the decision affect the most. Those who no longer have to worry about job, have paid their mortgages and are starting to draw their pensions, or those just starting out? And as young people get to voting age, the majority want to remain. The boomers are on a roll at the moment. We’ll take our free uni education and pensions, but you’ll have to work longer to pay for us and fund your own education too, let’s not be selfish kids we just can’t afford it, oh and have some trump and brexit in return. Cheers.

Also, why is it anti democratic to have a second referendum. If it’s the will of the people the they will vote leave again. Anyone would think they fear that’s not the case. Wouldn’t that be anti democratic.

[Thevalefan]

Are you suggesting it's old folk who are to blame for a result everyone could participate in?

Perhaps it's just old folk who make bad decisions?

Is this the same old folk who voted us in?

I despair when people believe politicians...

Everyone (almost) is an emotional voter because there are no facts in an election. Interpretations of statistics, projections and promises come by the shed load but facts?

Again... in my opinion... the problem with the referendum wasn't the answer it was the question.

 

I don't blame older people for Leaving, but as the statistics - which are otherwise considered factual by most (dependant on the source of course) - say older people were more likely to vote Leave, I can attribute some of my Remoaner sentiments to them. Just as there is a factual statistical link between education levels and voting preference. These things paint a picture. Old folk are most likely to be the ones using the NHS most, most likely to be the ones waiting in corridors, beds and on the phone for hours, days, weeks or months!! That's blamed on all the foriegners here (if that is why the NHS is so crippled, I don't know?)... The older generations have seen the country lose its identity through mass uncontrolled immigration (the UK Governments have all encouraged and implemented, not the EU), the older generations have seen Britain become less and less of a economic powerhouse against the world with the rise of other economies, have seen us lose the influence as we had in the past around the world, they probably have experienced the most deterioration to the British way of life.. You can go on, they've watched Industry be torn away from the country and the rise of the social hand outs

 

I accept this is all opinion-based on why I believe they probably voted Leave, but it's based on two years of trying to understand why the demographics of the vote were the way they were. The reality is as we have been through over this debate as most problems fall at the feet of our own Government and not the EU, but people won't accept it.

[geosname]

I don't blame older people for Leaving, but as the statistics - which are otherwise considered factual by most (dependant on the source of course) - say older people were more likely to vote Leave, I can attribute some of my Remoaner sentiments to them. Just as there is a factual statistical link between education levels and voting preference. These things paint a picture. Old folk are most likely to be the ones using the NHS most, most likely to be the ones waiting in corridors, beds and on the phone for hours, days, weeks or months!! That's blamed on all the foriegners here (if that is why the NHS is so crippled, I don't know?)... The older generations have seen the country lose its identity through mass uncontrolled immigration (the UK Governments have all encouraged and implemented, not the EU), the older generations have seen Britain become less and less of a economic powerhouse against the world with the rise of other economies, have seen us lose the influence as we had in the past around the world, they probably have experienced the most deterioration to the British way of life.. You can go on, they've watched Industry be torn away from the country and the rise of the social hand outs

 

I accept this is all opinion-based on why I believe they probably voted Leave, but it's based on two years of trying to understand why the demographics of the vote were the way they were. The reality is as we have been through over this debate as most problems fall at the feet of our own Government and not the EU, but people won't accept it.

From more likely to vote leave to voted leave is a leap of faith.

From predictions remain would win... Labour would win... etc eta... they didn't.

The NHS is dying a slow painful death because it can't cope with demand and until someone has the testosterone to start from scratch I doubt things will improve, throwing cash at it isn't the answer... not even from a bus.

[geosname]

It’s fact that the older generations voted leave while the younger generations voted remain. Now who will the decision affect the most. Those who no longer have to worry about job, have paid their mortgages and are starting to draw their pensions, or those just starting out? And as young people get to voting age, the majority want to remain. The boomers are on a roll at the moment. We’ll take our free uni education and pensions, but you’ll have to work longer to pay for us and fund your own education too, let’s not be selfish kids we just can’t afford it, oh and have some trump and brexit in return. Cheers.

Also, why is it anti democratic to have a second referendum. If it’s the will of the people the they will vote leave again. Anyone would think they fear that’s not the case. Wouldn’t that be anti democratic.

Where do you stop?

If you ask the people you have to respect there answer... whether you like it or agree with it or not.... the question asked was over simplistic, the campaignes were rubbish (mainly just slating the other side) and I doubt anyone expected the answer that came back.... and there should have been a set percentage of votes to decide the outcome on both sides... either side reaching 60% wins... but that would keep us in limbo until someone does.

Predictions are not facts no matter how well educated you are in the subject.

Remaining would have been better for me personally. ... but a second referendum would lead to a 3rd 4th 5th etcetera.

It's not truthful to argue we will be better of remaining.... it is if you add in my opinion... simply because it's a future event... your opinion may well be correct but it's not fact until it happens... therefore the statements by both sides were not fact, simply opinions.... or lies depending how you wish to view them

[Aussie Rules]

I agree with everything your saying but equally has there ever been a political campaign in the UK such as Brexit that has targeted so many people through misinformation in its messages using big data analytic companies and social media, even targeting from Google searches?? Complete misinformation at that too.

 

We can call is democracy, but it's a very watered down version with some powerful people pouring in the water.

 

My old politics mentor (R.I.P) would argue 'misinformation' manage well during an election campaign is a valuable propaganda tool - and that was back in the days before social media.

[Jacko51]

True democracy is the will of the people... the will of the people is to leave.

 

The will of the people was to leave. Is it still?

[Fosse69]

The will of the people was to leave. Is it still?

Well, after 2 years or so there are more teenagers now old enough to vote than the previous referendum majority, if they wish to do so. Another vote would also pass the responsibility off the heads of MPs, leaving them blameless, very tempting.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

Well, after 2 years or so there are more teenagers now old enough to vote than the previous referendum majority, if they wish to do so. Another vote would also pass the responsibility off the heads of MPs, leaving them blameless, very tempting.

I also read an article a few months ago saying how many older people who statistically fell into the leavers vote category have passed away since the referendum. Quite a few, the Daily Heil readership will be dwindling!