Trans

[geosname]

I take your & Andyregs answer. But we all know that 8 year olds wouldn't just leave it there. It was a summers day, the train was full and the driver in question was 10 feet in front of us. And children don't whisper ! I challenge anyone not to find that a difficult situation.

 

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Was it difficult because it was embarrassing? Was it embarrassing/difficult because it wasnt within the parameters or what is considered normal/acceptable?

I think its "normality" thats the problem.

I dont think I know what normality is in the acceptable way because my normality may not be someone elses, to me its a personal thing as with everyone else... if a person chooses to wear a dress its their choice, what difference does it make to me?... Im not shocked or offended by it.

There are often nudge nudge jokes made about Thailand and people who choose to come here, usually about lady boys and how to tell the difference... its quite simple, you ask, politely, its quite acceptable here, its open not closeted away like something you cant speak of.

[geosname]

mrs Jackson if you walked into the gents whilst several men were relieving themselves then there would be cause for a debate as would vise versa.

 

Why would/should it... we all do it. urinate that is.

Most of the toilet cleaning staff are female here and they walk in at any time, full or empty... no one cares.

[RailwayRowdy]

For me, it was difficult not because the bloke was dressed as he was (although it was surreal as he was driving the train) but my answer would have been heard by all and sundry. I would only have been summising his reasons and he would have heard my answer. Suppose my reasoning was wrong. How would he react ? What ever answer I gave Shannon she was bound to come back with another question as a young inquisitive mind would. If she had asked later at home, I would have tried to give a reasonable, but basic answer. With the situation we were in, I didn't think the longer response was appropriate.

 

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[philpvfc]

mrs Jackson if you walked into the gents whilst several men were relieving themselves then there would be cause for a debate as would vise versa.

 

They are removing ladies and gents toilets, they've already done it where my wife teaches in the aim of being gender neutral.

[Andyregs]

For me, it was difficult not because the bloke was dressed as he was (although it was surreal as he was driving the train) but my answer would have been heard by all and sundry. I would only have been summising his reasons and he would have heard my answer. Suppose my reasoning was wrong. How would he react ? What ever answer I gave Shannon she was bound to come back with another question as a young inquisitive mind would. If she had asked later at home, I would have tried to give a reasonable, but basic answer. With the situation we were in, I didn't think the longer response was appropriate.

 

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Sounds like you were mostly concerned with not saying the wrong thing, so there's nothing wrong with that. What you will find though, is that people who for some reason stand out due to who they are, whether it's transgender, a disability or religious clothing, they usually welcome questions, and understand people don't know what to say, and are understanding if you get things slightly wrong but with the best intentions meant.

[davidatpreston]

mrs Jackson if you walked into the gents whilst several men were relieving themselves then there would be cause for a debate as would vise versa.

 

 

 

True in the UK but I remember being quite shocked way back in the 1970's when I visited a beautiful German spa resort as part of a driving holiday. The place was called Bad Harzburg, in the Harz mountains in Northern Germany, at the time intersected by the old West/East border - you could only easily visit the Western Harz.

A most genteel place to unwind from a hectic visit to Berlin for the few days before, and very discreet, reserved and probably like an upmarket version of Bath in England, but far nicer scenery and facilities.

 

One of the things to try was the thermal baths, so we all trooped in, the Bademeister making sure everyone washed their feet under the disinfectant tap, and you had to shower (showers not mixed) and wash yourself thoroughly - if you didn't soap up well the Bademeister would tell you off.

 

It was smashing to enjoy the indoor and outdoor large swimming pools of naturally hot mineral water, which is pumped up from volcanic rocks 1000 feet below and comes through at over 30 C - like the most pleasant warm bath. So strict was the hygiene and perfect cleanliness of the place that they took samples of the water every hour to check it.

 

There were little whirlpools in the outdoor pool, a tunnel from one pool to another - but God help anyone that splashed or jumped in. I don't remember seeing many kids there, it was quite expensive relatively for the time.

 

Very soothing - and then to finish off, the sauna which was included in the price of the ticket. But what a shock - now, remember this was a totally respectable and highly rated state-run health 'kur' - it was MIXED - and getting changed was awful, I couldn't bring myself to take off my swimming trunks.

 

'Ah - Englishman !' laughed a lovely but rather wobbly and huge German lady with more bits than I dared glance at, who found the British prudishness and reserve incredibly funny, and I wished I had never gone to the sauna part. The next time a few years later I was brave enough to just go in and nobody looked, said a word or took any notice - cultural difference in action.

 

So it is actually a very British thing to be so shy and insular - and very silly really.

 

[philpvfc]

I tend to go skiing and pretty well all the saunas in Austria are mixed and you are not allowed to wear a costume. What got me was I was told off for wearing my towel around me, you are supposed to stretch out your towel and place it under your bottom and feet when sat on the sauna bench. Went with the lads and after 5 or so minutes we were chatting away to the Germans.

[RailwayRowdy]

I tend to go skiing and pretty well all the saunas in Austria are mixed and you are not allowed to wear a costume. What got me was I was told off for wearing my towel around me, you are supposed to stretch out your towel and place it under your bottom and feet when sat on the sauna bench. Went with the lads and after 5 or so minutes we were chatting away to the Germans.

But no doubt the Germans had to speak English.

 

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[JOHNNYAITCH]

you speak for yourself JA you're a freak and I'm quite happy to be called a pleb.

But amongst plebs you are considered a freak

 

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[Regal Beagle]

so no one has attempted to answer the question yet.

 

Take someone as an example who was born male, and transitioned into a female, how on earth is she going to feel offended/alienated/whatever else because someone has referred to a group of people as ladies and gentlemen?

 

Surely she is being included?

[davidatpreston]

But no doubt the Germans had to speak English.

 

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And so they should - we didn't fight two world wars to have to go there to speak kraut rubbish, its bad enough eating their weiner schnitzel things and having to use the wrong money. Mental illness, that's what it is - being offended by making people speak proper English, they need treatment that lot.........

[Regal Beagle]

quote from Royal Beagle-

 

The gender debate is despicable really. Pandering to mental illness in order to broadcast how progressive you are?

 

These people should be treated and helped, not encouraged to believe the garbage about there being more than 2 genders.

 

endquote

 

 

 

from another Beagle post - yet again people have misinterpreted my posts, this time as some sort of negativity towards trans people) endguote

 

 

 

There was a documentary about the mistreatment of Alan Turing, who cracked the Enigma code the Germans used, who possibly contributed more than any other one single person to saving Britain from WW2 defeat and certainly saved hundreds of thousands of allied lives.

 

The words used when he was imprisoned in the 1950's were almost exactly the same as above. Alan Turing committed suicide and the govt has apologised for his victimisation.

 

Very similar words can also be found in 1930's National Socialist propaganda priot to sending people to concentration camps.

 

Was I talking specifically about trans people there or have you intentionally twisted my post so that you can compare me to a Nazi (Not the first time you've made that comparison, and I'd challenge you to find a single shred of evidence but I know you can't, so I won't.)

 

Even IF I was referring specifically to trans people (I wasn't) then the suicide rate is incredibly high anyway, and I don't think being overly sensitive to train announcements has caused a single suicide)

 

Give up your ridiculous game Bea. We're having a debate here and you just constantly come up with this rubbish when people don't share your beliefs.

[Regal Beagle]

It's not about offending people. It's about inclusivity. Do you have any idea how high the suicide rate is for trans and questioning people? This tiny thing will make a difference, albeit a small one, but that's how change happens. In the Brexit thread, Andyregs made a great point about how, retrospectively, society's treatment of gay people was utterly shameful and I share his belief that when we look back at how trans people were/ are pilloried and attacked, there will be the same shame.

 

Can anyone explain to me how a person of binary gender sitting on a train would be offended by the term 'everyone'?

 

No one has said that "a person of binary" gender would be offended by the term everyone.

 

I don't think this will help the bring the suicide rate down at all and it's laughable that you are using that as an argument.

 

Please answer the question in the opening post.

 

"There may be people who identify as women depsite being born male on my train, I'd better not call them ladies as they will be upset"

 

What logic is that? Surely treating them like a normal person in that gender is the most inclusive thing you can do?

[Regal Beagle]

How about 'he feels more comfortable and happy dressing that way just as some girls prefer to wear trousers. As long as he is a nice person, it doesn't matter what he looks like'. An eight year old would probably just shrug and accept it. Don't underestimate kids. They are far more accepting than adults. We learn to discriminate and distrust.

 

Excuse me, but should we really be referring to a bloke in a dress as "he" as this might upset them...

 

 

 

....Where do we draw the line with this garbage? And have trans people ever actually said that being referred to as 'ladies and gentlemen' offends them?

[RailwayRowdy]

And so they should - we didn't fight two world wars to have to go there to speak kraut rubbish, its bad enough eating their weiner schnitzel things and having to use the wrong money. Mental illness, that's what it is - being offended by making people speak proper English, they need treatment that lot.........

The humour isn't lost on me, but it may come as a surprise that in Roman times, "kraut rubbish" was spoken in swathes of England due German settlements here. Hence a lot of German words found their way into the English language. Auto, Haus & Mann being but a few examples.

 

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