London Bridge incident

[Andyregs]

well quelle ******* surprise

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/home-office-terrorist-funding-report-saudia-arabia-focus-not-publish-conservatives-government-a7766381.html

 

the british people are reaping what this tory government sows, and i don't know about the rest of you but i'm sick of it

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-is-now-the-second-biggest-arms-dealer-in-the-world-a7225351.html

 

Saudi Arabia is the home of Wahhabism. The form of Islam that considers non muslims a threat and their enemy (at least more so than other types). They are a dictatorship. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. Yet they are our allies. On the other hand, the royal family would be overturned if it wasn't for western support, which would probably mean more mess. I don't actually envy anyone who is in charge of sorting it. Everyone on message boards and social media can spout their self righteous clap trap all they want 'they need to do this' 'they need to do that'. Truth is there is no simple answer. And hindsight is a wonderful thing that internet experts have that leaders don't. Its understandable to react emotionally to such acts though, though that is not usually the way to go. I was in Hyde park for the anti war march years ago when corbyn spoke. Hindsight shows he was right. However, what we face now is far more difficult than a state war. When you bring god into the equation, expecting rational thought processes goes off the table.

[blinkme]

The problem with dealing with these Islamists is that fear of death, which would deter most people, is not an issue for them - they actively seek martyrdom. Putting more police on the streets with guns may help to protect civilians but it won't stop these nutters carrying out these acts because they do not fear the consequences in the way any normal person does.

 

Ergo we need to look at the causes rather than the way we react?

 

I agree

[blinkme]

Saudi Arabia is the home of Wahhabism. The form of Islam that considers non muslims a threat and their enemy (at least more so than other types). They are a dictatorship. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. Yet they are our allies. On the other hand, the royal family would be overturned if it wasn't for western support, which would probably mean more mess. I don't actually envy anyone who is in charge of sorting it. Everyone on message boards and social media can spout their self righteous clap trap all they want 'they need to do this' 'they need to do that'. Truth is there is no simple answer. And hindsight is a wonderful thing that internet experts have that leaders don't. Its understandable to react emotionally to such acts though, though that is not usually the way to go. I was in Hyde park for the anti war march years ago when corbyn spoke. Hindsight shows he was right. However, what we face now is far more difficult than a state war. When you bring god into the equation, expecting rational thought processes goes off the table.

 

Yes - a very complex mess, that I certainly don't know the ins and outs of. I'm not foolish enough to think a simple change in foreign policy would instantly see the attacks end.

[Fosse69]

Anyone can make silly statements without any supporting facts. It is true that current borrowing is higher than 10 years ago but the reason for that is we are still paying the bills of the last Labour government including: bank bailouts, unnecessary school building schemes and benefit giveaways.

You'll see from these ONS figures borrowing is now on a downward trend rather than upward as it was 10 years ago.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/dzls/pusf

 

Regardless of who wins the election on Thursday I for one hope we continue to leave within our means otherwise we are heading for disaster.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using the onevalefan mobile app

The only way to live within our means is to increase taxes, and to invest in the future so we improve our productivity. Surely it is up to the banks to pay the money back that they were given in the US banking crisis, a decision fully backed by the then Tory opposition.

[geosname]

Lets try not to make this thread about the election

[Soul Intent]

The problem with dealing with these Islamists is that fear of death, which would deter most people, is not an issue for them - they actively seek martyrdom. Putting more police on the streets with guns may help to protect civilians but it won't stop these nutters carrying out these acts because they do not fear the consequences in the way any normal person does.

 

True to some extent, it's different to any other type of threat because of the whole martyrdom complex. However, if there is a heavy police presence somewhere it would probably deter these type of attacks to some extent as they know there window of opportunity to cause maximum damage would be massively reduced with police nearby. Likewise, heightened​ security may deter bombers if they think there is a higher chance they would get detected before they get the chance to detonate. The problem is that you can't have a heavy police presence everywhere so they'd just focus elsewhere where security is less - something needs to be done as a deterrent though.

 

We need to start to address the problem by starting at the root which is Islam. We need to publicly call it out for what it is, and look at where the funding and most toxic versions of the religion originate from, Saudi etc. and start restricting their influence and funding in this country and look at how we deal with immigration from these problem areas. It's a long term issue we've got to face up to and it is the future generations that we need to plan for.

[Fosse69]

Lets try not to make this thread about the election

Sorry Geo, forgot which thread I was on, responded to a post.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

The problem with dealing with these Islamists is that fear of death, which would deter most people, is not an issue for them - they actively seek martyrdom. Putting more police on the streets with guns may help to protect civilians but it won't stop these nutters carrying out these acts because they do not fear the consequences in the way any normal person does.

 

This is true and is why we need a new approach to countering such alien thinking and ideology. This will not be easy or a quick fix but the first thing we have to do is review the level of 'burden of proof' before detaining and charging someone in order to give the police the power to get potential attackers off the streets. There must be evidence highlighting someone as a suspect on the terrorist radar but probably not enough to constitute an offence under current law so we have to consider making the evidence for suspicion a level of evidence considered to be an offence. For clarity I am totally opposed to internment as that is the action of despotic and undemocratic regimes but if there is evidence to suspect surely proof of those reasons would be enough to justify arrest and detention?

 

Further to all that we need to determine and reinforce what we consider our society's values and make it clear that behaviour relating to things such as the subjugation of women, application of religious 'laws' that are not constitutionally recognised and preaching of religious hatred and intolerance are not acceptable. We don't accept these things from Christians, Jews, atheists, etc. and it shouldn't be tolerated from anyone. If anyone doesn't wish to abide by our society's core value set they should be assisted in voluntary migration to a country of their choosing that does share their values - Saudi Arabia, maybe? Funnily enough I doubt there'd be a big queue.

 

How we counteract this crackpot and deeply evil ideology over time I wish I could definitively answer but that will take some planning and thinking. However I do believe that most Muslims are fairly moderate and just want to live an ordinary life and are not sympathetic to these extremists; collectively they need to come out and make that clear because what the extremists want most is to start a civil war between Muslim populations in western society and everyone else which is the most effective way they can bring about the collapse of our societies.

 

Enough is enough and it's time for a change of approach.

[SuperValiant1876]

https://civilusdefendus.wordpress.com/civil-defense/al-qaedas-7-step-plan/

 

This is worth reading.

 

Here is the least you need to understand about this section:

al-Qaeda has a long-term plan, spanning nearly 20 years, that focuses on creating an Islamic super state to defeat the West.

Terrorist attacks are not merely conducted arbitrarily without view of the big picture.

Behind every terrorist attack (battle) looms the overall strategy.

Arab nations not in support of al-Qaeda are also targets. Their complete destruction is sought.

Portions of steps 1-3 are either complete or well underway leading to intended steps 4-7.

al-Qaeda has sought an alliance with Iran, already operates out of Syria and has made significant progress toward the governmental collapse of Pakistan, with the headquarters of al-Qaeda being situated and uncontrolled in Pakistan.

[For Us All]

do i think more police on the streets will help? yes

 

do i think not bombing civilians in the middle east will make it harder for these mentalists to brainwash people into joining them? yes

 

do you disagree with those 2 statements?

 

1. It remains to be seen but I can't see how any number of extra police can prevent a white van man mowing down civilians in any town or city.

 

2.ISIS have already stated that if we stopped bombing them tomorrow they would still want to kill us because it's our values they hate.Bombing civilians isn't an issue for them.

[SuperValiant1876]

1. It remains to be seen but I can't see how any number of extra police can prevent a white van man mowing down civilians in any town or city.

 

2.ISIS have already stated that if we stopped bombing them tomorrow they would still want to kill us because it's our values they hate.Bombing civilians isn't an issue for them.

 

Why haven't they been bombing us for longer then if it is just our values?

[blinkme]

1. It remains to be seen but I can't see how any number of extra police can prevent a white van man mowing down civilians in any town or city.

 

2.ISIS have already stated that if we stopped bombing them tomorrow they would still want to kill us because it's our values they hate.Bombing civilians isn't an issue for them.

 

1. So let's have no police then...

 

2. Surely not bombing civilians means less people are able to be radicalised? I don't trust our own government, I'm certainly not gonna believe what ISIS say (that's up to you if you wanna take their words as gospel), I prefer to use logic

[soothsayer]

Whilst not wanting to make light of an awful incident, the cockney geezer who was interviewed on R5L saying he started throwing tables, chairs and beer bottles at the attackers was class!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using onevalefan

[mr.hobblesworth]

A little flippant maybe but I wish when they keep showing tweets from world leaders, Narendra Modi didn't look like he was topless.

 

[Soul Intent]

1. So let's have no police then...

 

2. Surely not bombing civilians means less people are able to be radicalised? I don't trust our own government, I'm certainly not gonna believe what ISIS say (that's up to you if you wanna take their words as gospel), I prefer to use logic

 

I agree that middle eastern intervention has stirred up the hornets nest, but the hornets nest was already there, we've just provoked it.

 

Out of interest if ISIS tell you that they are killing us because of our beliefs why would you not believe them? Straight from the horse's mouth.