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Scott Brown on the EFL crisis


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I see the point that Brown is making, but is football all that different from other industries? Would we share the same view as Brown if the subject wasn't the sport and club we love? 

As with Dyche's & Parrish's point, I doubt this would be an issue with supporters if indeed it was a restaurant or a Tesco store. 

Football as an industry has struggled like other businesses, but at least its relatively well paid (and in some cases extremely well paid) playing employee's even at L1 & L2 level should be in a better position to cope financially than your average Joe Public. 

Harsh, but nevertheless a fact. 

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It's tough this.  Whilst I'm aware that many people will have been and will be harmed financially by the current situation there are many that won't.

If you pursue the argument as many do that the survival of local football clubs is very important to communities (I think I agree with that) then perhaps the fact that we can't attend a game shouldn't be relevant.  Many bought season tickets at Vale (me, and my eldest son included), not being able to go is a price to pay for doing out bit to support something we value for the future.

On Saturday, many non season ticket holders would have gone to Vale Park, queued, handed over £20+ and watched the game.  They get entertained (or frustrated, who knows until 445pm) for their cash and support the club in the way that season ticket holders do.  If we as fans, and the fans at all other local clubs really really want their clubs to survive how many would give the club their £20+ and then NOT attend in order that it still exists??  

We can argue how important local clubs are to the fabric of Burslem and the like, something I entirely agree with, but if those that would have put their cash in, don't as they get nothing for it (logical of course) then it questions just how important it really is, assuming that they would have been able to of course, there are many reasons why some couldn't pay, but then they wouldn't go even if they could for that same reason of course.

I know this will never happen - but for us, and clubs like us, there will be hundreds, maybe thousands that would have shelled out hundreds each on tickets through the season to watch.  If they want to watch in the future, if it's really THAT important then perhaps that cash should STILL head to those clubs.  If it doesn't it does make it difficult to argue just how different football is.

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20 minutes ago, Wrex said:

How about the government steps in and offers grants and low interest loans to EFL clubs, then recoups the money by adding a tax for football transfer fees/wages?

Far too sensible an idea. 

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1 hour ago, RailwayRowdy said:

I see the point that Brown is making, but is football all that different from other industries? Would we share the same view as Brown if the subject wasn't the sport and club we love? 

As with Dyche's & Parrish's point, I doubt this would be an issue with supporters if indeed it was a restaurant or a Tesco store. 

Football as an industry has struggled like other businesses, but at least its relatively well paid (and in some cases extremely well paid) playing employee's even at L1 & L2 level should be in a better position to cope financially than your average Joe Public. 

Harsh, but nevertheless a fact. 

How many Tesco stores depend on corner shops to provide their staff?  How many Tesco stores or restaurants have changed the rules of their businesses so that they can poach the best young staff from corner shops for next to nothing?

Football, and the way it is currently organised in this country, is very different from other businesses.  The top of the football pyramid depends on the strength of the layers of the pyramid below.  As has been pointed out, even our international team has players who learned their trade in the lower divisions.  Yet those lower divisions have been increasingly dumped on by the ever widening gulf between them and the rich party boys at the top.

Football is currently being dumped on by a government that is happy to see restaurants, bars, even theatres reopen and take some income while they expect clubs to carry on with all their outgoings and no incomings.  Clubs have spent a lot of money preparing their grounds for a post-covid return at the beginning of this month and now the government is stopping them from opening. 

If the situation at our level and above had been caused by bad financial management I would fully accept that it is no one else's responsibility but their own and would not expect hand outs.  But it hasn't, it's been caused by a situation beyond anyone's expectation or control.  I don't think it's unreasonable in the circumstances to expect a little outside assistance even if it's only low interest, long-term government loans. 

If a supermarket left Burslem, it wouldn't be the end of the world.  If Vale was no longer there, thousands of people would be devastated.

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21 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

 If Vale was no longer there, thousands of people would be devastated.

I think this is my point.  Beyond season ticket holders there are hundreds of people who would spend hundreds going to Vale and now are not because you can't, and who would have bought a season ticket and didn't as you cant go.  Those that would have carried on doing that can't be devastated if Vale is no longer there.....it really is out choice.  So if you'd have bought a season ticket but didn't as you can't go....buy one......and Vale should sell tickets to every home game as normal and sell them to the saviours of the football club - just because we can't go in doesn't mean we shouldn't pay for it to go on for us and our descendants in the future.  Those that don't - well they're not going to be as devastated as we think are they....because you try and avoid devastation and we ALL have that choice

So - this weekend, pay as you goers, give £22 to The Vale and pretend you've been.  We'll survive like that.  Don't and the devastation will be as much on our shoulders as the Govts.  Act like we really want it!!

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1 hour ago, RailwayRowdy said:

I see the point that Brown is making, but is football all that different from other industries? Would we share the same view as Brown if the subject wasn't the sport and club we love? 

As with Dyche's & Parrish's point, I doubt this would be an issue with supporters if indeed it was a restaurant or a Tesco store. 

Football as an industry has struggled like other businesses, but at least its relatively well paid (and in some cases extremely well paid) playing employee's even at L1 & L2 level should be in a better position to cope financially than your average Joe Public. 

Harsh, but nevertheless a fact. 

Its hard.  A few years ago I would have agreed as football fans are treated like customers.  However since Carol took over, it feels more like our club again and a community asset rather than a commercial enterprise.  I suspect the same is true of many clubs, especially amoungst the lower 2 divisions and non league.  So I am torn.

However, Championship can <ovf censored> off.  The amount they spend to chase the PL is stupid and they deserve all they get.  I read somewhere that they spend on average 107% of income on players wages - any business model, community asset or not, deserves to fail with those figures.

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3 minutes ago, mattyboy said:

I think this is my point.  Beyond season ticket holders there are hundreds of people who would spend hundreds going to Vale and now are not because you can't, and who would have bought a season ticket and didn't as you cant go.  Those that would have carried on doing that can't be devastated if Vale is no longer there.....it really is out choice.  So if you'd have bought a season ticket but didn't as you can't go....buy one......and Vale should sell tickets to every home game as normal and sell them to the saviours of the football club - just because we can't go in doesn't mean we shouldn't pay for it to go on for us and our descendants in the future.  Those that don't - well they're not going to be as devastated as we think are they....because you try and avoid devastation and we ALL have that choice

So - this weekend, pay as you goers, give £22 to The Vale and pretend you've been.  We'll survive like that.  Don't and the devastation will be as much on our shoulders as the Govts.  Act like we really want it!!

I think the fans of this club have given more than enough down the years to not be branded as not caring about it now.

If you really want to help, report the people on Facebook who stream games for free taking away thousands of pounds in needed revenue from the club.  Like you say, if folk can't afford a tenner to watch i follow, they mustn't be that bothered anyway.  And if they can't afford the tenner, they were never going to pay to go in the ground were they.

 

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3 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

I think the fans of this club have given more than enough down the years to not be branded as not caring about it now.

If you really want to help, report the people on Facebook who stream games for free taking away thousands of pounds in needed revenue from the club.  Like you say, if folk can't afford a tenner to watch i follow, they mustn't be that bothered anyway.  And if they can't afford the tenner, they were never going to pay to go in the ground were they.

 

I'm not saying we don't care....I'm saying that there will be hundreds who will keep their cash in their pockets because we can't go.....and every one that does that who would have paid if we were open is a reason we might fold.    That's how people would act if football clubs really were different.  You're dead right though, people watching a stream for free, rather than pay, who would have paid to go to the game if Vale Park were open are not acting like they'd be devastated if Vale closed.  Those that can't afford the stream are not relevant, you're right they'll always be there, but they will not be the majority.  They want to watch a team that others are paying for, and support a club that others are helping to continue to exist.    Football cannot exist without cash.  If we would be devastated it didn't exist then  all have a role to play.  

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29 minutes ago, mattyboy said:

I'm not saying we don't care....I'm saying that there will be hundreds who will keep their cash in their pockets because we can't go.....and every one that does that who would have paid if we were open is a reason we might fold.    That's how people would act if football clubs really were different.  You're dead right though, people watching a stream for free, rather than pay, who would have paid to go to the game if Vale Park were open are not acting like they'd be devastated if Vale closed.  Those that can't afford the stream are not relevant, you're right they'll always be there, but they will not be the majority.  They want to watch a team that others are paying for, and support a club that others are helping to continue to exist.    Football cannot exist without cash.  If we would be devastated it didn't exist then  all have a role to play.  

I dont disagree.  I dont think its fair to blame fans for not buying tickets they can't use should the worst happen though.

However, consider this.  We have evolved as a club so quickly under Carol that we are talking about a few thousand people being willing to pay for a season ticket that they had no guarantee would be usable.  This club is a far cry from what it was a short time ago.

I will guarantee you this though, if the club needed it and Carol appealed to the wonderful fans of this club for financial support, they wont be left short.

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How about the government steps in and offers grants and low interest loans to EFL clubs, then recoups the money by adding a tax for football transfer fees/wages?
Much, much, much too sensible an idea.
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3 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

How many Tesco stores depend on corner shops to provide their staff?

I take your point but, as I have stated on a previous thread, I don't believe that the PL need the EFL in any way, shape or form. 

Sheff. Utd. & Burnley may be exceptions, but I see very few players in the Greed Is Good League who have been signed from the lower leagues.

All I see is foreigner after foreigner after foreigner filling their No.'s 1-50 shirts with little EFL talent in sight. So to say that the PL is only as strong as the pyramid below is, in my opinion, wrong as they rarely use the talent which is a available there anyway.

Most PL recruitment (God I hate that expression) is done by people who make a living out of the game by knowing very little about it. Ladies and gentleman I give you Tony Scholes! 

But they do know lots of agents who also know very little about it. But these agents do know how to make money and more money can be made by signing unknown, unproven foreigners, as opposed to expensive EFL players. 

So in short, the EFL is insignificant to the PL and they certainly don't need them. 

Hence the stand off. 

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How about the government steps in and offers grants and low interest loans to EFL clubs, then recoups the money by adding a tax for football transfer fees/wages?
Loans are available at low interest guaranteed by the government just as they are for all businesses. The problem is football clubs have been ran so poorly in the past that most won't be eligible.

The average player wage in league two is 50k a year some are on 200k a year why should the tax payer who possibly averages 20-25k a year ( in this area ) pay towards it.

B teams. The reason they want them is because as has been mentioned we have successfully helped produce england players through them having loans to the lower leagues. So maybe we just refuse to take loans from premier league clubs and stop helping them produce 30 million pound assets.

As for what we can do for the club spend money in the club shop even on stuff you wouldn't usually bother with. every member of my family will be having an over priced mug and scarf for Christmas so I can help the owners just that little bit more.
We sold 4k season tickets knowing we wouldn't get to go and when I asked in July about how many had refunds from last year it was less than 20 and every one who had was apologising because they needed the money. I have to say I have never felt prouder to be a vale fan after hearing that.

The fans of this great club will not let it fail no matter what it takes.But I don't think we should expect everybody to feel the same way.
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1 hour ago, RailwayRowdy said:

I take your point but, as I have stated on a previous thread, I don't believe that the PL need the EFL in any way, shape or form. 

Sheff. Utd. & Burnley may be exceptions, but I see very few players in the Greed Is Good League who have been signed from the EFL

Six of the England starting 11 tonight started their careers in the EFL.

Pope, Gomez, Coady, Philips, Ings and Calvert-Lewin. 

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1 hour ago, dishydave said:


The average player wage in league two is 50k a year some are on 200k a year why should the tax payer who possibly averages 20-25k a year ( in this area ) pay towards it.
 

If a club has the income to cover those wages in normal times then the size of the wages is irrelevant.  The taxpayer has contributed billions to businesses which have no income during the pandemic - football clubs have received nothing.  Specific football based low interest long term loans based on a club's annual turnover should not cost the earth in terms of government spending at the moment and will mainly be recouped. 

Do they not play football at Eton??

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19 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

The taxpayer has contributed billions to businesses which have no income during the pandemic - football clubs have received nothing

Surely they have received furlough payment for employee's, including playing staff? 

The club as a separate entity may have received no financial help. That I don't know. But as the club's biggest expenditure has to be employee's salaries, it is difficult to so how the club have "received nothing" 

Granted the furlough support will have now been removed as they are effectively working, but in terms of overall financial support I don't know what more the government can do. 

The cry will no doubt be to let the paying public back into stadia, but can anyone honestly, with hand on heart, say that with the infection rate going through the roof that this would be a wise move? 

We all want to get back to the live action, but wanting to do it and being able to do it safely are two completely different matters. 

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