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geosname

NHS The sinking flagship

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On 11/08/2019 at 18:35, geosname said:

I don't think simply pouring money into the NHS is the answer..... it never worked in the past.

Countless parties have promised it at election time to get votes, some have actually managed it, but it's just a sticky plaster when major surgery is needed.

What would your preferred treatment be Doctor Geo?

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2 hours ago, TheSage said:

Bingo. I claim my prize.

You haven't used that one for a while. Lately it's been fake news. 

Recruitment is already a critical issue with the NHS and leaving the EU will make it worse. It's simple common sense that if you make it harder and more expensive for foreign nationals to work here - as well as denigrating the Union in which they live and whipping up a press frenzy about immigrants - then it will get more difficult to recruit staff. We are short of thousands of workers now and will need many more in the future. Another 250,000 in the next ten years to meet demand.

For example, 841 workers of EU origin have left Oxford University Hospital Trust since 2016. In the period 2010-2015, in comparison, 410 left. Fact.

Barts hospital trust in London has seen a fall of around 30% in recruitment of EU workers since the referendum. Fact.

The Nuffield Trust reports that there has been "a net loss of 1584 nurses from the EU, compared to the usual net inflow before 2016." Fact.

What the figures are like now we can only guess although the GMC did say last December, to be fair, that the numbers of graduate doctors had not as yet decreased.

Like many other sectors the NHS survives on non UK staff. Anything that makes overseas recruitment more awkward harms that process. It's self evident common sense.

That's a Remainers point of view and focuses on workers from the EU.Hopefully when we leave the EU the number of citizens coming in will be greatly reduced and we can recruit accordingly from all parts of the world.

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I did focus on EU workers, yes, to be fair. But we've got a shortage NOW of around 100,000 staff in the health services and with rising demand the NHS reckon they'll need maybe 250,000 more employees in the next decade. 

Why haven't we filled these 100,000 vacancies already if it's as easy as you say it is?

EU workers make up around 62,000 of the NHS workforce. If we start losing them on top of the current 100,000 vacancies do you not think it will make a difficult recruitment problem many times worse?

The Royal College of GPS, the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association have all expressed grave concerns about our ability to recruit and retrain staff because of Brexit.

That's the view of medical professionals.

 

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1 hour ago, TheSage said:

I did focus on EU workers, yes, to be fair. But we've got a shortage NOW of around 100,000 staff in the health services and with rising demand the NHS reckon they'll need maybe 250,000 more employees in the next decade. 

Why haven't we filled these 100,000 vacancies already if it's as easy as you say it is?

EU workers make up around 62,000 of the NHS workforce. If we start losing them on top of the current 100,000 vacancies do you not think it will make a difficult recruitment problem many times worse?

The Royal College of GPS, the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association have all expressed grave concerns about our ability to recruit and retrain staff because of Brexit.

That's the view of medical professionals.

 

Forgive me for having no faith in the BMA but six weeks ago they voted literally to invite the whole planet to use the NHS free of charge.

People expect our NHS services to be reserved for those who live in the UK and are paying into the system.

The BMA are completely out of touch with the British people.

 

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5 hours ago, Heatwave said:

What would your preferred treatment be Doctor Geo?

Rebuild it from the roots up to encompass everything..... from cradle to grave.

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16 hours ago, TheSage said:

Bingo. I claim my prize.

You haven't used that one for a while. Lately it's been fake news. 

Recruitment is already a critical issue with the NHS and leaving the EU will make it worse. It's simple common sense that if you make it harder and more expensive for foreign nationals to work here - as well as denigrating the Union in which they live and whipping up a press frenzy about immigrants - then it will get more difficult to recruit staff. We are short of thousands of workers now and will need many more in the future. Another 250,000 in the next ten years to meet demand.

For example, 841 workers of EU origin have left Oxford University Hospital Trust since 2016. In the period 2010-2015, in comparison, 410 left. Fact.

Barts hospital trust in London has seen a fall of around 30% in recruitment of EU workers since the referendum. Fact.

The Nuffield Trust reports that there has been "a net loss of 1584 nurses from the EU, compared to the usual net inflow before 2016." Fact.

What the figures are like now we can only guess although the GMC did say last December, to be fair, that the numbers of graduate doctors had not as yet decreased.

Like many other sectors the NHS survives on non UK staff. Anything that makes overseas recruitment more awkward harms that process. It's self evident common sense.

Great facts sage but where did the nurses go? Did they all leave the country or have they changed employment and are still counted in the stats? 

You'll get your prize on 31st october hopefully. Freedom.

And I agree, making it harder and more expensive for people to come to the uk to fill vital holes in our workforce would be bad. 

So let's make it easier and cheaper for those people to come here. Solved. In one sentence. 

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13 hours ago, TheSage said:

I did focus on EU workers, yes, to be fair. But we've got a shortage NOW of around 100,000 staff in the health services and with rising demand the NHS reckon they'll need maybe 250,000 more employees in the next decade. 

Why haven't we filled these 100,000 vacancies already if it's as easy as you say it is?

EU workers make up around 62,000 of the NHS workforce. If we start losing them on top of the current 100,000 vacancies do you not think it will make a difficult recruitment problem many times worse?

The Royal College of GPS, the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association have all expressed grave concerns about our ability to recruit and retrain staff because of Brexit.

That's the view of medical professionals.

 

Cause and effect Sage?

You are only focusing on one cause.

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So why haven't we filled those 100,00 vacancies? And how does making it harder for EU health workers to get here help us?

I'm not focusing on anything. I'm simple telling you what the professionals who work in the NHS are saying. I'm giving you the numbers.

You choose to ignore all the warnings and the growing number of vacancies because the facts don't suit. Please give me the names of 2-3 national health bodies who believe that Brexit is good? I won't hold my breath.

And claiming that the BMA are out of touch with the population when they spend all their lives 24/7 caring for people is ludicrous.

It's the government's job to sort out administrative details surrounding treatment. It's a doctor's job to treat people in need. Are you suggesting that a doctor should refuse to treat someone let's say who is pregnant or has cancer because they supposedly can't prove they have a legal right to be here? 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, TheSage said:

So why haven't we filled those 100,00 vacancies? And how does making it harder for EU health workers to get here help us?

I'm not focusing on anything. I'm simple telling you what the professionals who work in the NHS are saying. I'm giving you the numbers.

You choose to ignore all the warnings and the growing number of vacancies because the facts don't suit. Please give me the names of 2-3 national health bodies who believe that Brexit is good? I won't hold my breath.

And claiming that the BMA are out of touch with the population when they spend all their lives 24/7 caring for people is ludicrous.

It's the government's job to sort out administrative details surrounding treatment. It's a doctor's job to treat people in need. Are you suggesting that a doctor should refuse to treat someone let's say who is pregnant or has cancer because they supposedly can't prove they have a legal right to be here? 

 

 

No I'm suggesting we are being taken for a ride by freeloaders and the BMA are supporting it?

You are correct in stating that it is a doctors job to treat people in need,so why dont they just concentrate on that.It isn't their job to decide policy on health tourism,which is making waiting times even longer.Some people I'm afraid are taking advantage of our generosity and taxpayers deserve better.

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Are there any figures for the money recovered from your so called freeloaders i.e. people without health insurance ? There is no point in Doctors/Nurses filling in forms if the admin staff  do not have  the time to chase the civil servants or whoever deals with the foreign authorities to recover the money. We have not reached the US way of turning people away for emergency treatment.

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1 minute ago, Fosse69 said:

Are there any figures for the money recovered from your so called freeloaders i.e. people without health insurance ? There is no point in Doctors/Nurses filling in forms if the admin staff  do not have  the time to chase the civil servants or whoever deals with the foreign authorities to recover the money. We have not reached the US way of turning people away for emergency treatment.

Do they get turned away?

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4 minutes ago, geosname said:

Do they get turned away?

Plenty of stories in the press, what the situation with Obamacare is I do not know, perhaps a US resident will enlighten us.

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I don't think anyone would argue about a desire to try and prevent criminals and illegal immigrants sneaking into this country and abusing the system. We all agree on that.

But it isn't the job of a doctor to decide who he/she treats and be asked to check documentation, payment etc. if someone needs immediate health care, like a cancer patient. It's the government's job to sort all that out and stop these people at the border. 

The BMA is saying that doctors should not turn away people who are ill and/or need urgent care, regardless of their origin. That's what doctors do. Save lives. I'm inclined to agree with them. What kind of society do we want, if let's say a doctor has two patients in front of him who both need very urgent care?  Are you are suggesting they turn one away and only treat the other?

We need to address the problem at source ie. government inaction at the borders, and not try and blame doctors for doing what they think is morally and ethically right.

Health tourism is very hard to quantify. The King's Fund reckon it's about £60-80 million a year. The total NHS bill is around £115 billion so as a % it's around 0.3%. But it's hard to get accurate figures because we don't keep accurate records (whose fault is that?). Some reckon it's up to £280 million a year. It's hard to get at the truth because health tourists include visitors who fall over and break an ankle, ex-pats seeing their old GP, folk who sneak in and try and get free treatment, etc. We do of course have a reciprocal deal with the EU so we can access healthcare when we're abroad and this is generally more costly to them than us (x5 more) because most of our folk abroad have retired. Since 2015 non residents are supposed to pay upfront fees for NHS treatment but again who is policing that?

We need to be careful not to fall for the right wing narrative in the press that immigration is terrible and blow everything out of all proportion. To give you one example.

In 2017,St George’s Hospital in London checked 1660 maternity unit patients and found only 18 ineligible, with a total chargeable amount of £45 000. Equally small proportions of ineligible maternity patients were found at Newham and Redbridge maternity units. How did the Daily Mail report that story? "Crackdown on women who fly to the UK to give birth on the NHS is working despite doctors' fury." Context is everything. Don't believe everything you read in the papers. Don't get me wrong. It's money we need to try and recoup but to exaggerate it is silly.

As I've said before, the reason why there are increasing problems in the NHS is not primarily due to a small number abusing the system but the fact that the government has decreased the amount of GDP we spend on the NHS, cut resources and training, plus an increasing number of us are getting older and treatment is getting more expensive. 63,000 EU workers work in the NHS and keep it running. Thank god they do, including 300-400 in our local hospital in Stoke. 

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1 hour ago, TheSage said:

I don't think anyone would argue about a desire to try and prevent criminals and illegal immigrants sneaking into this country and abusing the system. We all agree on that.

But it isn't the job of a doctor to decide who he/she treats and be asked to check documentation, payment etc. if someone needs immediate health care, like a cancer patient. It's the government's job to sort all that out and stop these people at the border. 

The BMA is saying that doctors should not turn away people who are ill and/or need urgent care, regardless of their origin. That's what doctors do. Save lives. I'm inclined to agree with them. What kind of society do we want, if let's say a doctor has two patients in front of him who both need very urgent care?  Are you are suggesting they turn one away and only treat the other?

We need to address the problem at source ie. government inaction at the borders, and not try and blame doctors for doing what they think is morally and ethically right.

Health tourism is very hard to quantify. The King's Fund reckon it's about £60-80 million a year. The total NHS bill is around £115 billion so as a % it's around 0.3%. But it's hard to get accurate figures because we don't keep accurate records (whose fault is that?). Some reckon it's up to £280 million a year. It's hard to get at the truth because health tourists include visitors who fall over and break an ankle, ex-pats seeing their old GP, folk who sneak in and try and get free treatment, etc. We do of course have a reciprocal deal with the EU so we can access healthcare when we're abroad and this is generally more costly to them than us (x5 more) because most of our folk abroad have retired. Since 2015 non residents are supposed to pay upfront fees for NHS treatment but again who is policing that?

We need to be careful not to fall for the right wing narrative in the press that immigration is terrible and blow everything out of all proportion. To give you one example.

In 2017,St George’s Hospital in London checked 1660 maternity unit patients and found only 18 ineligible, with a total chargeable amount of £45 000. Equally small proportions of ineligible maternity patients were found at Newham and Redbridge maternity units. How did the Daily Mail report that story? "Crackdown on women who fly to the UK to give birth on the NHS is working despite doctors' fury." Context is everything. Don't believe everything you read in the papers. Don't get me wrong. It's money we need to try and recoup but to exaggerate it is silly.

As I've said before, the reason why there are increasing problems in the NHS is not primarily due to a small number abusing the system but the fact that the government has decreased the amount of GDP we spend on the NHS, cut resources and training, plus an increasing number of us are getting older and treatment is getting more expensive. 63,000 EU workers work in the NHS and keep it running. Thank god they do, including 300-400 in our local hospital in Stoke. 

Just be careful when you used different fonts Sage.Mr.H might accuse you of copying and pasting.

Just a thought.🤣

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13 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Plenty of stories in the press, what the situation with Obamacare is I do not know, perhaps a US resident will enlighten us.

As far as I know no one is denied treatment in the USA because of an inability to pay or not having health insurance but I'm sure some of the America antagonists on OVF will find an article where some one was once. In some states, eg MA I believe the state will pay or provide insurance if money is not available.

Obama care is generally only used if someone doesn't have Health Insurance subsidized by an employer. The cost of Obamacare depends on your income, how old you are and which state you live in, it is usually much more expensive than employer subsidized healthcare and the price varies depending on the level of coverage.

There is also a social security program called Medicaid which helps with medical bills again depending on household income .

 

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Why have so many left since 2016? Can you explain why that has happened in greater numbers than ever before?

A more hostile environment towards them and their homelands in Europe? Would you want to come here if we cut ourselves off from Europe? 3-4 years ago I could get maybe 1.40 Euros for my pound. Today? What is it? 1.08? A falling pound won't help to recruit foreign workers either.

Haven't I read somewhere that to get in you might need a wage of 36K? Those who do come here will need to apply for settled status - accompanied by all the extra paperwork and onerous bureaucracy that comes with it. 

I don't know the figures for the NHS but 61,000 EU workers left the UK in the last half of 2018.

Some nurses here, in a FT article about why they're leaving. Their words not mine.

https://www.ft.com/content/8f2d6e22-e7f9-11e8-8a85-04b8afea6ea3

We're 100,000 NHS staff short already. Brexit won't help the situation one iota.

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Have the EU super nurses left the country or simply left the NHS? Until you can answer that, repeating the figures over and over is irrelevent.

You are guessing what the immigration policy will be. Well, assuming a worse case scenario in order to back up your opinion.

As I've said, we can just let nurses in if we want. It really will be that easy.

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Yes. They have left their jobs in the NHS and left the country. In addition, the number applying to work here in the NHS has also fallen, including consultants.

It isn't a question of us wanting to let them in but they increasingly don't want to come here - principally because of the hostility towards the EU shown by people like you and the increasing amount of hassle, expense and red tape they will face if they do choose to come here.

I notice you completely ignore my question at the start and haven't addressed most of my points above. 

I think we can move on. 

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