Malaysian airliner crash

[Bea Smith]

The aircraft not only changed route but it has now emerged that the Kiev rightist regimes air traffic people instructed it to FLY LOWER. Why would they do that - only minutes before the horrific incident ?

It also isn't the first time an aircraft has been shot down over Ukraine by military accident - the Ukrainians shot down a flight that took off from Tel Aviv about 12 years ago killing over 60 people. That's ok though, as it was a Russian passenger plane, so no problem there for the US.

 

Even if the seperatists did shoot down this plane by accident (they'd have nothing to gain from shooting it down deliberately) then it is still the fault of the illegal Kiev regime, as they have been bombing and shelling schools, medical centres, hospitals, and other civilian targets for weeks without hardly a word of condemnation from our press or the US.

They took over Slavansk and arrested the entire police force (Ukranians, their own people) who have not been seen since. They have also used illegal phosphorous air strikes.

yet Obama complains when the local people shoot down the Kiev attackers military aircraft and it looks suspiciously like this has been setup by the Kiev regime to totally discredit their own people who don't want to be ruled by Nazi-backed corrupt politicians.

It is no surprise that people in this region choose to shoot at military targets bombing civilians and cities, and the other question is why on earth commercial flights were still going within 500 miles of a war zone where several military planes and helicopters had been removed from their murderous raids recently.

This is Ukraine's 'Reichstag fire' - history repeats itself and fascists advising that illegal 'president' have a habit of using the same tactics. Google how Hitler used that incident if you don't know what I'm talking about - early 1930's, and it just tipped the balance between Hitler having considerable power and total dictatorship by setting up world condemnation of the burning down of the German parliament- generally accepted to be a Nazi inside job later blamed on a Dutch left-wing student.

It's very sad that the majority of those who lost their lives were Dutch, generally a peace loving and tolerant people.

We should also not forget the 800-plus civilians (including over 50 children) who have died in the Donetsk and Lugansk area because of indiscriminate shelling and bombing, air strikes and other carnage by the Kiev military, supported by the Americans.

[Bea Smith]

If true it's sad that it takes something like this for the UN and other allies of Ukraine to act instead of the pathetic threat of sanctions that they've given to Russia to date.....

 

'Allies of Ukraine'- this illegal regime, installed by a coup which removed a democratically elected government, is not a member of NATO or the EU - and the failed nation state of Ukraine has only been kept going by being given massive amounts of money from... guess where? Yes, Russia, over £12 billion in the last few years. Ukraine was also given gas at less than half the price charged to other countries and run up a bill of £5 billion, which it refuses to pay. Last time the Russians turned the taps off (quite rightly, no pay means no play) they siphoned off the EU's gas, and have said they will again - no doubt this will end up costing the British public a fortune.

I for one don't want Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova or any more of these ex-Soviet states in the EU and I wonder how many from these places would rush to Britain if they get that status.

[Bea Smith]

It did not change route. it flew the route that was calculated for it hours before it took off by the Captain, FO, and the Malaysian flight dispatch office

 

 

 

as for the rest of that utter crap...

 

 

The fact that you can quicky manufacture a couple of well-drawn but obviously suspect charts then just dismiss a logical argument proves nothing. You have access to Ukranian air traffic control do you ? Firstly, if you read carefully rather than jump in with both feet I posted that the Ukrainian air traffic requested the plane to fly lower, it doesn't mean that it actually followed that request, and I ask again WHY would they want it to fly lower? Only one possible reason.

 

It is Malaysia airlines that have said that the plane was asked to fly lower, but you carry on with your Dr Goebbels style rubbish.

 

Do you also deny the blitz on civilian areas (unreported in the US and UK generally, though covered in Germany and many other EU states) which has been fare more indiscriminate than the highly covered Israeli strikes on Gaza?

And maybe we could have some words of wisdom about the people in charge in Kiev now, what is you opinion of the 'Right Sector' and the way the elected government (which admittedly like all recent Ukrainian leaders was incompetent and corrupt) was removed by a coup?

[Warren]

The airspace over the Baltic and then Russia can be used to fly to Asia and presumably so can other European routes. Given there is an armed struggle where aircraft have been shot down and the forces involved have access to first rate Russian armaments (not chucking spears at each other) how anyone in the airline, other airlines or those responsible for flight paths could possibly deem flying over this area an acceptable risk? Put the fare up, pay for the extra fuel, fly round.

[Burt]

Very sad

 

http://www.themag.co.uk/tyne-talk/tragic-news-two-newcastle-fans-amongst-victims-air-crash-ukraine/

 

It really bugs me that countries have to immediately say how many of their own were killed. What difference does it make?

[Jacko51]

It really bugs me that countries have to immediately say how many of their own were killed. What difference does it make?

 

This is a football message board. It is populated by football fans. I just thought people would be interested that's all.

[Tone]

According to a military expert interviewed tonight, there is no way the Ukranians could have fired the rocket that downed that airliner. The work was done by a Russian, I am sure about it. Putin has blood on his hands.

[Paul6754]

There's too much wiggle room for Putin and Russia to accept responsibility for this heinous act. The blame will be attached to a screw up by Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists and the tragedy will result in all interested parties sitting down and finding a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine/Crimea issue.

[Warren]

There's too much wiggle room for Putin and Russia to accept responsibility for this heinous act. The blame will be attached to a screw up by Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists and the tragedy will result in all interested parties sitting down and finding a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine/Crimea issue.

 

There is a line of enquiry that says Ukraine forces fired the missile trying to shoot down Putin on his way home. I guess we have to wait for intelligence to come to findings that are better than on the balance of probabilities and nearer beyond all reasonable doubt before attributing blame and seeking accountability formally.

[Bea Smith]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine

 

I wonder why the separatist terrorists fired gunshots to keep the OSCE investigators away from the site

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/heartless-looters-raid-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-crash-site-article-1.1872047

 

oh, right

 

Looks like someone at the internationally acclaimed organ of truth and fairness the nydaily (?) got hold of a copy of Rupert Murdoch's SUN a day or two after the Hillsborough disaster. People in Liverpool will recognise the hateful, false lies that were used against them - they picked the pockets of the dead, we were told, all in graphic detail and it was all lies. Propaganda, pure and simple to spread hatred.

 

What is not in doubt is the figure released by the (Western/EU) OSCE investigators that 250 civilians have been murdered by indiscriminate air attacks, shelling and other attacks by the illegal Kiev regime's forces in Lugansk alone. These people obviously don't matter to you even though many were children.

Hospitals, schools, shops and many other places with no military value and no possibility of accidentally targeting the wrong places. All ok when Kiev and the 'Right Sector' do it ?

Is it any wonder that forces protecting these areas might try to shoot down planes bombing them.

 

That 250 figure (which is almost certainly much higher in reality) is just in one area, Lugansk, so the total for Donetsk and the other areas will probably be over 1,000. Remember these are Ukranian citizens, being shelled and bombed by their own (illegal) government.

 

I must say that you seem to have all your own specially formulated answers and even Obama has said many aspects of this should not be pre-judged and that we must wait until after it has been fully investigated. Perhaps you are just less fair-minded.

[Tone]

Looks like someone at the internationally acclaimed organ of truth and fairness the nydaily (?) got hold of a copy of Rupert Murdoch's SUN a day or two after the Hillsborough disaster. People in Liverpool will recognise the hateful, false lies that were used against them - they picked the pockets of the dead, we were told, all in graphic detail and it was all lies. Propaganda, pure and simple to spread hatred.

 

What is not in doubt is the figure released by the (Western/EU) OSCE investigators that 250 civilians have been murdered by indiscriminate air attacks, shelling and other attacks by the illegal Kiev regime's forces in Lugansk alone. These people obviously don't matter to you even though many were children.

Hospitals, schools, shops and many other places with no military value and no possibility of accidentally targeting the wrong places. All ok when Kiev and the 'Right Sector' do it ?

Is it any wonder that forces protecting these areas might try to shoot down planes bombing them.

 

That 250 figure (which is almost certainly much higher in reality) is just in one area, Lugansk, so the total for Donetsk and the other areas will probably be over 1,000. Remember these are Ukranian citizens, being shelled and bombed by their own (illegal) government.

 

I must say that you seem to have all your own specially formulated answers and even Obama has said many aspects of this should not be pre-judged and that we must wait until after it has been fully investigated. Perhaps you are just less fair-minded.

 

Please educate us as to how the regime in Kiev is "illegal" to you when (other than Putin and perhaps Kim Jong-Un) no one else in the world seems to agree?

 

Obama won't come out and criticise anyone except those who don't agree with him, so you can't expect him to judge Putin and his cronies, can you? After all, he did say to Putin's oppo Medvedev that after the (last) election, he'd "have more flexibilty" to work with Putin.

 

I see you deriding Rupert Murdoch's news media, but you seem to have fallen for the lies conveyed by Russia Today.

[Warren]

Hammond on Andrew Marr concluded the reasonable man with all the current evidence would think it likely that Russian backed militants using Russian weapons shot the plane down. Also Putin is the one man in the world who could immediately facilitate an international investigation but at present his only contribution is obsfiscation. We wait to see if the countries most economically affected by links with Russia are prepared to increase sanctions.

[Tone]

The official Russian line is to blame the Ukraine. But one news agency at least has blamed the separatists. Only time will tell if their editors get hauled off to Siberia.

[Santa]

If the Russians genuinely believed that the Ukranian military tried to shoot down Putin they would have marched straight into Kiev by now.

 

As it is, they are being rather circumspect in their response to such an act of war.

[Warren]

There are two media domains. Within Russia Putin is doing ok on the media front. Those reporters still alive are presenting the loopholes in evidence against Russia and the failures of others. Some of these failures are legitimate points to raise. Internationally Putin is under more pressure, but he is KGB and Most world leaders are all talk and no substantive action because they either can't carry the votes to be severe or they haven't got the bottle. So far of course, perhaps Angela can be Thatcher.