Leyton Orient (H) match thread 6th Feb

[PV1973]

4 minutes ago, kevin_struggles said:

MIghten and massey are wingers so that's at least two and I would probably add sang and shorrock to the list both are much better higher up the pitch than they are defending and sang is the best crosser of the ball at the club.

Forgot about Massey. I had Mighten in my head as the one winger. I thought Sang was supposed to be a central midfielder by trade. 

[Guest]

Having seen the goal back do not usually watch opposition goals has not interested in them   Sang failed to go with his man however how easy they found it pass to one another was absolutely startling throughout the evening .

 

 

 

[Hoppers]

I thought the pass that put him through was exceptional - no first touch to control, just a perfectly weighted through ball on a plate - the kind of <ovf censored> weve been missing since OA and AD were recalled

[JRC]

13 hours ago, ValeFanInBrum said:

Thanks.

So I suppose what I was thinking remains - if they are used to playing in all sorts of different formations then, be it 4-4-2 or 5-3-2 or whatever, would that not be better than persisting with the same (current) formation that hasn't really worked for 2 seasons?!

The real problem is we don't score enough goals. If you discount the first day aberration our goals conceded isn't too bad. Last season Harrison 8, Wilson 3 and Taylor 2 goals excluding penalties.  This season Wilson 3 goals excluding penalties.  Defensively we aren't worse than most teams in the league. Excluding James Plant no player has been played in a position or a formation they haven't played a number of games in. Someone like Massey has played more football at wingback than as a winger. The whole formation thing is a giant red herring. There are teams above us playing a number of formations, for the most part they score more goals. You can analyse every goal scored in league 1 and put 99.9% down to a defensive error. Ours get analysed to death because we don't score many goals.  The reason we don't score many goals is our forwards aren't that good. Wilson is capable of odd moments of magic and that's about it.

[kevin_struggles]

15 hours ago, PV1973 said:

Forgot about Massey. I had Mighten in my head as the one winger. I thought Sang was supposed to be a central midfielder by trade. 

Im not sure what sangs official position but he is a liability defensively so maybe sticking him higher up the pitch out wide with a full back behind him would be the best way to utilise his undoubted crossing ability. That said I don't want us to play 4-4-2 I would prefer 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1.

[darren1810]

Just now, kevin_struggles said:

Im not sure what sangs official position but he is a liability defensively so maybe sticking him higher up the pitch out wide with a full back behind him would be the best way to utilise his undoubted crossing ability. That said I don't want us to play 4-4-2 I would prefer 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1.

Herein lies the problem. We have players who even the manager didn't know their best position. 

Sang is not a RWB . Yet has rarely been trusted as a centre mid even when Ojo is out we've gone for Lowe.

The squad again is ridiculously unbalanced with utility players who will fill in wherever.

That all boils down to poor recruitment and playing square pegs in round holes.

Asking for trouble when you've got the likes of Sang, Lowe ,Massey and others when not even the manager knows their best position. 

We've just made do as they can fill in and do a job.

I repeat what I said yesterday Ripley and Chislett are good signings. The rest have been horrific .( permanent signings I mean ) . 

[jeffers]

6 hours ago, Hoppers said:

I thought the pass that put him through was exceptional - no first touch to control, just a perfectly weighted through ball on a plate - the kind of <ovf censored> weve been missing since OA and AD were recalled

100% spot on. We were playing some of the best football I’d seen for years while they were with us. Coupled with injuries to Ojo & Garrity we fell off the cliff. With regards to OA and AD, the management had no plan in place for their obvious recall.

[kevin_struggles]

5 minutes ago, darren1810 said:

Herein lies the problem. We have players who even the manager didn't know their best position. 

Sang is not a RWB . Yet has rarely been trusted as a centre mid even when Ojo is out we've gone for Lowe.

The squad again is ridiculously unbalanced with utility players who will fill in wherever.

That all boils down to poor recruitment and playing square pegs in round holes.

Asking for trouble when you've got the likes of Sang, Lowe ,Massey and others when not even the manager knows their best position. 

We've just made do as they can fill in and do a job.

I repeat what I said yesterday Ripley and Chislett are good signings. The rest have been horrific .( permanent signings I mean ) . 

I agree ripley and chislett are the only decent signings we made in the summer and if we get relegated I am fairly certain we will lose both of them. The biggest mistake AC made for me was his retained list he got that badly wrong and then it got worse when benning, harrison and forrester left when it was too late for us to replace them.

[kevin_struggles]

16 hours ago, worldsendvalefan said:

Problem is Flitcroft won't allow this as it's not part of his Port Vale ethos. Under him we will not buy players who do this or employ managers who would do this.
More and more I think Crosby was working with his hands tied behind his back.

Sent from my SM-A528B using onevalefan mobile app
 

I hear this a lot and I have been guilty of running with it myself as if it were fact but on reflection do we actually know that df decided our style of play, formation, signings etc if so how do we know that? Are we simply surmising it because Carlol described his role as everything to do with the football side or was there a whistle blower I'm not aware of.  For instance how do we know that he didn't simply meet with the manager and they agreed a strategy between them. I'm only asking because every time I saw AC interviewed he was passionate in his defence of the style of play and told us we needed to be patient with it because they were trying to change the way we play and it was non negotiable. That doesn't sound to me like something he had imposed on him it sounds more like something he was happy to take ownership of.

[Rampant Zebra]

I think Crosby was hamstrung by the inability of the recruitment team to deliver the promised players required to play in the manner we were supposed to be playing.

[Fosse69]

12 minutes ago, kevin_struggles said:

I hear this a lot and I have been guilty of running with it myself as if it were fact but on reflection do we actually know that df decided our style of play, formation, signings etc if so how do we know that? Are we simply surmising it because Carlol described his role as everything to do with the football side or was there a whistle blower I'm not aware of.  For instance how do we know that he didn't simply meet with the manager and they agreed a strategy between them. I'm only asking because every time I saw AC interviewed he was passionate in his defence of the style of play and told us we needed to be patient with it because they were trying to change the way we play and it was non negotiable. That doesn't sound to me like something he had imposed on him it sounds more like something he was happy to take ownership of.

I thought the Club/DoF  decided the style of play, improvement to the academy etc, and consequently choose  managers/coaches familiar and passionate about the chosen style of play . AC with his Championship/Prem coaching experience would fit the task and was brought in to support DC, whose task was promotion after steadying the ship. The New Manager thread covers Peoples` preferences for the next episode at the Vale.

[kevin_struggles]

6 hours ago, JRC said:

The real problem is we don't score enough goals. If you discount the first day aberration our goals conceded isn't too bad. Last season Harrison 8, Wilson 3 and Taylor 2 goals excluding penalties.  This season Wilson 3 goals excluding penalties.  Defensively we aren't worse than most teams in the league. Excluding James Plant no player has been played in a position or a formation they haven't played a number of games in. Someone like Massey has played more football at wingback than as a winger. The whole formation thing is a giant red herring. There are teams above us playing a number of formations, for the most part they score more goals. You can analyse every goal scored in league 1 and put 99.9% down to a defensive error. Ours get analysed to death because we don't score many goals.  The reason we don't score many goals is our forwards aren't that good. Wilson is capable of odd moments of magic and that's about it.

On the other hand if we had defended better in some of the games we did score in we would have picked up more points from them. Its a chicken and egg scenario. In my opinion we have been poor at both ends and AC said that himself many times.

[kevin_struggles]

46 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

I thought the Club/DoF  decided the style of play, improvement to the academy etc, and consequently choose  managers/coaches familiar and passionate about the chosen style of play . AC with his Championship/Prem coaching experience would fit the task and was brought in to support DC, whose task was promotion after steadying the ship. The New Manager thread covers Peoples` preferences for the next episode at the Vale.

Thats my point though you have just given me an opinion of what you thought the case was. Maybe I am playing devils advocate here but Im asking if we actually know that because the way Im reading Carols letter is that she has given him certain targets and at this moment in time he is achieving those targets and if that is the case then she has no basis upon which to sack him. That's the opinion of his boss who knows him better than we do and knows more about what decisions he has or hasn't made than we do. whereas everything I am hearing from his detractors, including myself I freely admit, has been from people who don't know him, don't work with him, don't know what his instructions/limitations/pressures are and don't know if his management style is dictatorial, laissez faire, democratic or a mixture. Being responsible for the playing side doesn't in itself mean he makes all the decisions himself and then issues dictats to his minions it can mean a lot of things depending on the culture and personalities involved. If I were director of football and had to work closely with various heads of departments, for example the team manager I would not necessarily make all their decisions for them I would invite input then make the final decision on whether to go with their suggestions or not. Maybe that's what he does in which case he isn't failing in his job he is at worst failing in a part of his job and that is only if we are relegated if he brings in a decent manager and we survive then on paper at least he has done his job. Unless someone can point me in the direction of someone who actually know otherwise I will have to accept what Carol is telling me because she is in a better position to judge than I am.

 

I am as frustrated with our obvious failings this season as anyone else and I have been vocal about it in my usual passionate way 😁 but! I respect Carol so I will give DF the benefit of the doubt. For now at least.

And I will get behind the team, all of them.....maybe apart from loft (joking honestly 😁)