Who’s to blame?

[Properman]

As I said a couple of weeks ago, you can not just sack Crosby. Flitcroft  has to go as well, he says who comes and who goes. We will never get a decent manager under those constraints. Good managers bring in players they think will make a difference, not what Flitcroft thinks. I bet Darrell feels like he was pushed under the bus now.

[pete vale]

12 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Some hysterical overreaction upthread and some totally unfair criticism of Carol. Not sure how she can be blamed for a collapsed drain or that she should be criticised for forming stronger links with one of the most famous men in Britain. If she only invited "her clique", well after putting millions of her own cash in to the club, I don't really give a <ovf censored>. Yes, she needs to <ovf censored> Flitcroft off but some of the other stuff going her way is well out of order. Some real cry babies on here. 

The 'problem' I have is this: Obviously, I'm grateful that the Shanahans purchased the Vale from the Fat Controller. We were heading out of business for sure. But, that said, many mistakes have been made by the owners and the 'committee' who run affairs on/ off the field. To comment on those is not a slur on Carol but merely pointing out factual concerns and observations. I am a continual improvement engineer, old fashioned time & motion engineer by profession. I look at businesses, issues, processes and methods, etc. However, much of what has/ is happening on and off the pitch that is not working is merely a lack of common sense, which in my opinion is often neglected by organisations in favour of more fanciful 're-invent the wheel' proposals that cost both time and money with little or no reward.

For Vale to prosper, they need to generate income from the infrastructure and resources available - I understand that. But fundamentally what are we? A FOOTBALL CLUB, What is or should be the priority - THE FOOTBALL! All the rest is important and obviously maintains and grows the team/ club. I was very sceptical when we appointed DF as DOF and not manager. DF is very proficient in his manner and conversation, indeed, I believe he could sell snow to eskimos! In my opinion many decisions on/ off the pitch have been wrong. There has been a big spend and focus on hospitality, which generates money, which is fine but what % of the Vale population can see or benefit from this?.  As many have said it's OK for the minority to enjoy 'living it up' in the RW Suite, whilst the rest of us queue and walk in the p*ss in sub standard facilities. That said, I can remember the toilets in the Hamil Lorne St being merely railway sleepers behind a wall!

Losing Colin Garlick was a big mistake - I assume his face didn't fit and he was maybe contradicting the new 'model' theory?

Other key staff members have gone and replaced with inexperienced 'new-age' employees who probably tow the company line and dream.

On the pitch, we have been very lucky indeed to have Arblaster and Devine this season but the inexperienced loan system will backfire in the lower leagues. To not recruit strikers of any real value on the pitch (goals) in the last two seasons is a fundamental critical error that effectively 'could' wipe out any gains made in revenue streams off the pitch. I could make a list of issues/ failings but we know most of those. Critically it appears that those in control appear to ignore the basic facts and fundamentals of the business, this effectively leads to failure in any business.

The team is by no means strong enough in every position apart from Goalkeeper this season. The midfield of Ojo, Arblaster, Chislett and Devine was key to early results. I do think that the team on the pitch mirrors events off the pitch. With that in mind, we appear to be so inconsistent, naieve and often adopt a scatter gun, fire-fighting approach. The club needs realigning, starting with the First Team set up NOW. Will anyone listen - probably not from my experience. There will always be an excuse for failure.

[Bycarsbill]

Amazingly, I have to agree with mr.hobblesworth that some of the criticisms of Carol are way out of line.  Many on here seem to have forgotten what a complete mess our club was in when the Shanahan's took over.  Yes, mistakes have been made, but we all should remember that running a football club is like no other business there is. It is just too simplistic to argue that the 'usual' business rules, procedures & processes apply to footbal clubs. Looking at the Synetics' business and financial results, Carol & Kevin clearly know what they're doing running a 'normal' business.

Just look at the mess a number of Premiership owners have made of clubs in that division.  Everton already has points' deductions, Forest look like they're shortly heading the same way.  God knows what conclusions will be drawn about Man City when the protracted investigations into that club's finances is finally completed?  Chelsea's owners have spent more than a £billion on players, yet their squad looks no better balanced than ours!

Nearer to us in League One, Wigan & Reading of course, have their own specific problems.  i've no doubt that Carol will be monitoring closely DF's performance, and whatever many of us may feel, will, of course, be the final arbiter of whether he goes or stays. I risk drawing a certain amount of ire and flak by saying this, but although I of course, don't want us to relegated, I would rather us be in League Two and solvent ,rather than going bust on some unrealistic ego-fuelled attempt at unreality.  If you've supported PV for more than 70yrs as I have, one realises that, generally, we're only ever going to be playing in tiers three & four of the EFL pyramid, with just the occasional glimpses of a 'higher echelon' !

 

[smithie]

I read somewhere that this business model we are using is a 5-year plan, and that employing this model should not be disrupted at the first sign of trouble (or words to that effect).

Just how closely are we wedded to this model that we are risking ignoring this elephant in the room of being 5th bottom? Surely at some stage business/common sense kicks in and you address the immediate issue? 

 

 

[Wrex]

6 hours ago, ollyandpatch said:

Sound Familiar? .....

No debt: Bury's Flitcroft looks to strengthen squad further as club's finances questioned

WWW.MANCUNIANMATTERS.CO.UK

“We want to assure any concerned fan that the Club is not spiralling into debt and only acting as an investor to create income that in turn will make the Club self sufficient.

“We want to apologise for any concern this may have caused, BUT at the same time ask that support is given to allow time for such investments to show dividend.”

 

self sufficient... where have I heard that phrase recently?

[Nippy Naylor]

3 hours ago, Properman said:

As I said a couple of weeks ago, you can not just sack Crosby. Flitcroft  has to go as well, he says who comes and who goes. We will never get a decent manager under those constraints. Good managers bring in players they think will make a difference, not what Flitcroft thinks. I bet Darrell feels like he was pushed under the bus now.

I reckon your right on DC he was defo probably thrown under the bus  because DC took no BS and to be honest everything that comes out of Flitcrofts mouth is BS and  reckon DC pulled him up on it  a few times and flaky Flitcroft couldn't wait to pull the trigger  He was one of the best managers we've had for a while , just my humble opinion anyway 

[Mr Brightside]

Our owners are believed to be putting in £1m a year just to fill the current financial gap.

In the last 24 years we've been in administration twice and had the Smurthwaite debacle and have basically declined since the end of the Bell era up to the beginning of the Shanahans era.

Unless the Vale can get further investment e.g. New owners or investors, develop and sell players or through off field activities etc then we will more than likely continue with the trend of being a 'bounce club' between league 1 and 2 at best.

Our owners unfortunately don't have the disposable wealth that the majority of owners have in league 1 and are currently further hindered with a large old ground that has still yet to be fully opened and costs a lot of money to maintain and update.

Short term with a change of manager (ideally experienced) we may see an improvement, medium term with a change of DOF  we may see further improvements, however long term without any further investment we will continue being at best a league 1 and league 2 bounce club with fond memories of the Rudgie days. 

[darren1810]

1 hour ago, smithie said:

I read somewhere that this business model we are using is a 5-year plan, and that employing this model should not be disrupted at the first sign of trouble (or words to that effect).

Just how closely are we wedded to this model that we are risking ignoring this elephant in the room of being 5th bottom? Surely at some stage business/common sense kicks in and you address the immediate issue? 

 

 

Well surely the 5 year plan is water tight and covered all scenarios?

Let's use 2000 as an estimated drop in average crowds were we to be relegated. That's knocking a million quid in revenue over 23 matches.

I'm sure this is all in the blueprint. 

[MBE]

1 hour ago, Wrex said:

No debt: Bury's Flitcroft looks to strengthen squad further as club's finances questioned

WWW.MANCUNIANMATTERS.CO.UK

“We want to assure any concerned fan that the Club is not spiralling into debt and only acting as an investor to create income that in turn will make the Club self sufficient.

“We want to apologise for any concern this may have caused, BUT at the same time ask that support is given to allow time for such investments to show dividend.”

 

self sufficient... where have I heard that phrase recently?

Even god doesn’t believe his <ovf censored>.

[TJHValiant]

32 minutes ago, Mr Brightside said:

 

 

Short term with a change of manager we may see an improvement, medium term with a change of DOF we may see further improvements, however long term without any further investment we run the risk of being a league 1 or league 2 club with fond memories of the Rudgie days. 

Run the risk? Isn’t being a league 1 or league 2 club, with only fond memories of the Rudgie days exactly where the club has been since 2000? 

[TJHValiant]

Every club in league 1 seems to lose money. It is an awful division to be in to make a profit. That’s why the big boys like Sheffield Wednesday, United, didn’t enjoy being down there as in reality is offers not much more money than league 2 but has vastly bigger overheads that don’t compensate for the bigger crowds. 
 

I don’t accept this idea that Vale park is some expensive money pit either. Lincoln, Bristol Rovers, Stevenage, Cambridge, Portsmouth, Barnsley, Peterborough, Orient, Carlisle all have old, established grounds. 
 

I would say Vale Park is roughly on par with Peterborough’s ground. 
 

They make money because they make big profits on players and have had some good cup runs. Our problem is, we had a great league cup run but it pays little compared to even a 3rd round FA cup one. 
 

Who was the last player we sold for over £100k? Every time we sell talent it tends to be for these minor “undisclosed sums”. 

[TJHValiant]

2 hours ago, smithie said:

I read somewhere that this business model we are using is a 5-year plan, and that employing this model should not be disrupted at the first sign of trouble (or words to that effect).

Just how closely are we wedded to this model that we are risking ignoring this elephant in the room of being 5th bottom? Surely at some stage business/common sense kicks in and you address the immediate issue? 

 

 

That model got torn up last season when Clarke left. 

[darren1810]

5 minutes ago, TJHValiant said:

Every club in league 1 seems to lose money. It is an awful division to be in to make a profit. That’s why the big boys like Sheffield Wednesday, United, didn’t enjoy being down there as in reality is offers not much more money than league 2 but has vastly bigger overheads that don’t compensate for the bigger crowds. 
 

I don’t accept this idea that Vale park is some expensive money pit either. Lincoln, Bristol Rovers, Stevenage, Cambridge, Portsmouth, Barnsley, Peterborough, Orient, Carlisle all have old, established grounds. 
 

I would say Vale Park is roughly on par with Peterborough’s ground. 
 

They make money because they make big profits on players and have had some good cup runs. Our problem is, we had a great league cup run but it pays little compared to even a 3rd round FA cup one. 
 

Who was the last player we sold for over £100k? Every time we sell talent it tends to be for these minor “undisclosed sums”. 

That Newport v Man United FA Cup game would of dwarfed what we made from 5 League Cup ties combined and then some. 

[Mr Brightside]

20 minutes ago, TJHValiant said:

Run the risk? Isn’t being a league 1 or league 2 club, with only fond memories of the Rudgie days exactly where the club has been since 2000? 

Meant 'at best', thanks for highlighting, I've updated post.

[kevin_struggles]

A struggling third division team flirting with relegation doesn't need a director of football it needs a 20 goal a season striker so I agree DF out but I don't buy this AC can't do anything because DF picks the players malarkey. If DF picks the players, the team, the formation and the style of play and the medical staff decides who plays and how long they can play for that would leave AC with no job to do. I don't believe he would sign up for that but even if he did then we should still sack him because I doubt a new manager would agree to come in and let someone else make the decisions whilst he took the flak for them so things would have to change.

 

In my opinion AC has spent the entire season trying to force the players into a system that doesn't suit their skill set, in fact I suspect he thought he could coach them into it but I don't know how because he has many times in interviews said that they are unable to train on the grass so they basically sit in a classroom. I believe that AC believes in the system and I think the system is the problem.