Brexit again...

[bookworm]

It's quite telling and no surprise that the posters spouting nonsense, whataboutism and strawman attacks in this thread are the same ones who are well known on here for being Cretins. If FATBOYSTEVE and Mickyferns turn up we'll have the whole set.

thank you for that vote of confidence DOHA.

[Family Stand Terrier]

Brexit cuts across right and left wing politics, it's just more of those on the right tend to support Brexit than those on the left.

 

I voted remain on the basis of I believe being members of the EU is in the best interests of the country, obviously leave voters have the opposite view. I have seen many reasons given to remain backed up by real evidence, the obvious one being full access to the tariff free EU internal market but as I've said I haven't seen any argument supported by real or accurate evidence to make me think Brexit will be anything but detrimental to the nation. I've seen lots of bunkum like 'take back control', 'unelected EU government', 'control immigration' and 'trade with the rest of the world' like we're not allowed to but nothing that assures me we WILL get better trade deals or we WILL grow our exports or we WILL have more publib revenues to fund public services. If I saw compelling arguments for us to leave I would change my mind. I have challenged anyone from the Leave camp to provide such argument as opposed to simple rhetoric and unsupported personal opinion but still it isn't forthcoming, all the posts since I first asked are points about party politics or jibes at politicians. Even Theresa May has now started to pretend the drivel written on that bus was in some way true.

 

All this just convinces me the Brexit camp, left or right, have no better reason to leave the EU than, mainly, a delusional sense of 'John Bull' patriotism producing an irrational dislike of other member states and / or not liking the idea of having to share pan-European laws even though we contribute to making them. I've heard that many brainless and bigoted references to the war it's embarrassing. Unless someone from the Leave side, anyone, including politicians, give some reasoned sensible evidence as to why Brexit is likely to be a success then I can only be convinced leaving is madness, even if I don't agree with the vision of post-Brexit Britain at least I could live with it if it didn't look like making ourselves much worse off for no gain.

 

PLEASE Brexit supporters, let's see something of substance, I'm getting close to just being certain there isn't anything which, in any debate, is incredibly unusual.

You're approaching this with your eyes somewhat closed, given the fact you're trying to justify your original view. I find it hard to agree that you're open to changing your mind.

 

Future predictions that forecast doom and gloom post Brexit you deem them to be "real evidence". How can it be evidence, it hasn't happened yet. It's an opinion, a forecast. It may be an educated one based on sound reason, but real evidence it is not...yet. It's not like this scenario has been played out in the past for people to reference.

 

As such, you'll probably not find anyone that can provide real evidence to counter your arguments, for exactly the same reasons, and given your bias, you're highly likely to bat them off as nonsense. Ultimately it all comes down to opinion at this point, surely.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

You're approaching this with your eyes somewhat closed, given the fact you're trying to justify your original view. I find it hard to agree that you're open to changing your mind.

 

Future predictions that forecast doom and gloom post Brexit you deem them to be "real evidence". How can it be evidence, it hasn't happened yet. It's an opinion, a forecast. It may be an educated one based on sound reason, but real evidence it is not...yet. It's not like this scenario has been played out in the past for people to reference.

 

As such, you'll probably not find anyone that can provide real evidence to counter your arguments, for exactly the same reasons, and given your bias, you're highly likely to bat them off as nonsense. Ultimately it all comes down to opinion at this point, surely.

 

At this point (and for a long time) I am of the opinion we are better off in the EU, I'll make no bones about that. I reached that position because I considered the evidence before me, I didn't decide what was best in the national interest based on emotional feeling, unfounded conjecture or any other unsubstantiated reason. If I had considered the evidence before me indicated leaving the EU to be a better option I would have decided that was my position. I would expect everyone to have done the same and come down on one side or the other.

 

My point is, which I seem to be struggling to get across, is usually in a debate there are opposing sets of logical, factual evidence, a set for one side and a set for the other, but in the Brexit debate all I've seen is evidence to remain supported by innumerous economic studies from various respected bodies, business forecasts from various important trade organisations, immigration figures and historical profiles, WTO trading rules, etc., etc. and hardly any evidence of the same quality to leave. There's virtually nothing except unfounded statements like 'take back control' as if we'd somehow lost it, 'control immigration' when that's an issue seperate to EU membership because we've never controlled it properly, or properdrivel that everyone sees as such like 'we fought a war against them' or 'I don't want the Germans and French telling me what to do'. I want someone from the leave side to produce some sensible evidence as to why we'll be better off outside the EU, especially given the pig's ear the government / parliament are making of our withdrawal.

 

Track through this thread, all 100+ pages of it, and you'll see virtually nothing offered in logical evidence as to why we should leave, just lots and lots of emotional opinion and rhetoric. There is, on the other hand, loads of logical evidence offered up by those supporting remain, facts, figures, academic studies, business research, facts about European law and the EU electoral system, etc., etc. So, as a worried man that is concerned we are in the throws of economic suicide for the majority of the population, I want to see some sensible reasons why we're better off outside the EU and the single market because that's where we're headed.

 

This is the biggest political event in this country since the decision to declare war on the German Empire in 1914, something that destroyed the old world order, finished the imperial empires including ours, handed world economic power to the USA and gave rise to World War 2. The consequences of Brexit may not be so dramatic but they'll certainly have a monumental effect on our future prosperity and position in the world.

 

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from and if I saw evidence to make me think differently I would because one of the truest sayings ever is 'there's none so blind as those that will not see'.

[Fosse69]

If a parliament cannot tell a government what to do, has the government become a dictatorship?

[geosname]

I have been polite in my responses, I stated I would have prefered to remain but the big difference in the 2 camps is that one base there decisions on what they know now against the not knowing of leaving and the other side based on what they know against the possibilities when leaving.

Until the deed is done everything is guess work, it's impossible to gauge reaction until you know what to react to.... in specifics not fear of the unknown.

[Fosse69]

A bit like jumping off a cliff hoping the tide will be in, or sitting there and enjoying the view?

[Paul6754]

So if Brexit does go t*ts up then what next.

[Fosse69]

So if Brexit does go t*ts up then what next.

National Govt?

[SourceOfTheTrent]

National Govt?

That's what we should be having over the deal to leave. This is too important for party politics it should be done in the national interest.

David Cameron will go down in history as one of the biggest idiots ever to hold office. Even if you're a leaver you can't be impressed with the mind boggling mess he's made then walked away from by putting absolutely nothing but a simplistic question before the electorate with no detail whatsoever and a result criteria that meant either side only needed one vote more than the other to win. Utter cabbage, I have nothing but contempt for him.

[For Us All]

So negative,have a bit of faith.👍

[SourceOfTheTrent]

So negative,have a bit of faith.👍

 

What an excellent foundation on which to chance our economic well being!

 

God will provide to a Godless country

[Fosse69]

So negative,have a bit of faith.

Romans 13?

[For Us All]

That's what we should be having over the deal to leave. This is too important for party politics it should be done in the national interest.

David Cameron will go down in history as one of the biggest idiots ever to hold office. Even if you're a leaver you can't be impressed with the mind boggling mess he's made then walked away from by putting absolutely nothing but a simplistic question before the electorate with no detail whatsoever and a result criteria that meant either side only needed one vote more than the other to win. Utter cabbage, I have nothing but contempt for him.

 

Talking about walking away,let's all hope that's what Merkel is about to do.Mind you before she goes we must thank her for Brexit,by not giving Cameron a deal she was instrumental in the referendum taking place.

Thanks Angela.

[For Us All]

Romans 13?

 

More like Romans 14.13.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/21/news/companies/airbus-brexit-uk-threat/index.html

 

The Brexit chaos is getting deadly serious now. This is another example of the disaster we're heading for like lemmings over the cliff.

Also, recently the issue of service exports was raised. Our economy is 80% service based and we export £90bn worth of services to the EU, more than the next 8 largest markets put together. These exports are also at risk dependent on the outcome of Brexit.

The whole thing is economic suicide, it's madness!

I wonder what percentage of leave voters even considered these issues or understood the likely consequences when they voted to come out of the EU?

If our politicians were acting in anything like the national interest they'd stop Brexit and, in the interests of true democracy, they'd organise a second referendum with some proper criteria explaining what options are available and what they mean, along with a sensible proportion to carry any motion like we had when we joined.

I've asked several times for leavers to explain, with supporting evidence, how Brexit can be a success and there's been nothing forthcoming. That's because there isn't any evidence for a successful Brexit!

This is nuts and will seriously affect our standard of living.