Brexit again...

[For Us All]

It's all a bit Stoke on Trent to insult someone by saying they're really clever. I get so much stick for being a 'suit' or having a higher education by lads down the Vale or in the pub. Remember when I said I voted remain after the vote 😂

 

You were one of the 31% then?

[Paul6754]

I dont think SOTT said that, I think he was making the point that the US was built on immigration and for Trump to implement the policies he has is hypocritical of the way in which America has been built?

 

Could be wrong though.

 

America was built mostly by immigrants from Europe. Trump is doing no different on immigration that the leaders of Hungary, Poland, The Czech republic, Slovakia and latterly Italy.

[Andyregs]

Your suggestion that the USA shouldn't have borders or an immigration policy is right out of "Very Lefty Speak", It's nothing to do with natural science or any fossil record. People from all around the world have only been coming to the USA legally in record numbers since the mid 60's change to the Immigration Act mainly due to Chain Migration and the Diversity Visa programme.

 

 

 

Culture doesn't change that fast unless there is an invasion, a high rate of migration like there has been to the UK and the USA recently coupled with a low birthrate of the indigenous population. Eg, the muslim population nearly doubles every 10 years in a country, there are currently 2.8 million muslims in the UK, by 2050 that's estimated to be around 40 million. Tt's about protecting a countrys' identity, culture, way of life, the future lives of their kidsetc, nothing more nothing less.

 

 

 

Because the word "Destroyed" suggests the first immigrants to the USA set out to kill all the American Indians, as I understand the situation American Indians killed each other in large numbers as they fought each other for land and also large numbers died fighting the settlers for land. All was not bad between American Indians and the settlers as The Thanksgiving holiday is a celebration of a Harvest feast between the Wompanog Indians and the settlers in Plymouth, MA

 

 

 

The UK was influenced by the Roman invasion, not built on it, they came, they saw and most of them probably went back to Rome. If anything modern day Britain was built on the back of the Industrial Revolution. Yes some Roman DNA was left behind but its a stretch to say the UK was built on invasion by the the Romans. I also challenge your point that the USA was built by slaves. The slaves in America were mainly located in the South, the North was a far, far more wealthy area which suggests that the riches of the North weren't due to slavery. Also the North wanted to abolish slavery, if the slaves were doing all the work and all the wealth generation why would the Noth want to abolish it. That's not to say the slaves didn't play a sizeable part.

 

 

 

That's just the reality of the situation, up until the 1960's America was 90% white, where did those people come from?, Africa, China??? Please read the vision of the founding fathers in the Declaration of Independance, the thoughts of Abraham Lincoln and the concern about any changes to the Immigration Act in 1961.

 

 

 

The USA/EU don't carry the whole refugee burden but a huge chunk of it. Saudia Arabia and the other rich gulf states do very little. I am a remainer and one reason why is that it's been shown in the USA over hundreds of years that the majority of Europeans from all different EU countries will over time assimilate and contribute.

 

A lot of purposeful or accidental misinterpretation there. I never suggested we shouldn’t have borders. That’s ridiculous. You’re turning into FUA with that one.

 

The word destroyed suggests the population was decimated due to immigration. I don’t know how you can argue this one. One population went up, th either dropped by 95%. Yet you suggest this was because they were fighting themselves, and presumably would have happened anyway?

 

The industrial revolution didn’t happen in isolation. It was part of a continuum that carries in today, starting with the arrival of Homo sapiens, via the vikings, via the normans, via the Romans, the introduction of Christianity (an immigrant religion I’ll add), via the industrial revolution all the way up to today.

And don’t Saudi Arabia take in about a third of its population in immigrants.

 

Do Mexican immigrants count as ‘European based’ if they are of Spanish heritage from a few hundred years ago? I’m not sure where the border to this bubble you want to put around history begins.

[Andyregs]

No, how could it? You refuse to actually acknowledge any point anyone makes.

 

I know how you feel,I'm still waiting for a response from the hypocritical lefties why they didn't protest in the same numbers in March when the Saudi Prince was here.

Anyone?

 

Post 2197

 

You were saying? ‘Keep up’?

[geosname]

But it would be fair to say the people who followed these very Brexit idiots also fall within the same assertion of being idiots for blindly following them like a herd of sheep.

 

I would fully back Brexit if a realistic and feasible plan was put forward. Of which here no one has done, or even made an attempt to articulate what they would believe is best. I've also not found anyone who can suggest anything better than "f'em walk away, no Deal, keep our money and stop letting people in". I never thought I'd say it, but I think Teresa May deserves a bit of credit on the white paper as she's going for damage limitation and keeping the door open for us to return to the EU if everything goes belly up. Shes had an incredibly hard job, with her own party backstabbing her at every opportunity. She clearly is taking into consideration all the warnings from all the expert analysis which have been done which is really the best thing she can do while still delivering EXACTLY what people who voted Leave voted for.

 

Until anyone can give a decent, logical opinion about how we will do better outside of the EU (which I am all ears to hear) then I'll continue to say the things I do. Not that anyone cares, but I never expected anyone to give two about what I have to say on a Vale forum

Without knowing what the deal is, do don't can can't etc it would all be guesswork. The same as saying we are better off staying in.

[geosname]

Never voted conservative or Republican in my life but am realistic enough to realize that in the modern world countries have borders and an immigration policy, the latter isn't determined by events from nearly 400 years ago, I guess you think otherwise.

 

My post was meant to exaggerate for effect based on your assertion that modern day America shouldn't have borders or an immigration policy because the land was stolen from Native Americans, that contention is totally absurd and unreal. Do you make the same protestation to Australia, New Zealand, parts of North Africa etc etc.

From what I think I understand the native American Indians were partly tribal nomads who didn't fight over ownership of the land, possibly their ancestral right to use it and the resources on it, and their way of life.

[Aussie Rules]

From what I think I understand the native American Indians were partly tribal nomads who didn't fight over ownership of the land, possibly their ancestral right to use it and the resources on it, and their way of life.

 

similar to our Aboriginal culture for land use when the tall ships first anchored on the eastern seaboard.

[geosname]

Very sad how the "invaders" civilised the savages... mainly by robbing them and killing them.

[Aussie Rules]

Very sad how the "invaders" civilised the savages... mainly by robbing them and killing them.

 

Indeed Geo.

[Fosse69]

Returning to Brexit, a bit of sense from Greening. Since the politicians cant decide on what to do, return the decision back to the people. A final referendum with 3 choices, no deal, best deal from the EU, stay as we are. 1st and 2nd preference voting to be used to ensure at least a 50% mayority. Assuming of course that the EU give us the option, but since they need us more than we need them, why would they refuse?

[Thevalefan]

Without knowing what the deal is, do don't can can't etc it would all be guesswork. The same as saying we are better off staying in.

 

There is tons of evidence to suggest we have and will continue to do as well, as we have done over the past few decades, inside the EU. The guesswork is all what might happen outside the EU.

 

I'm a big believer in taking risks if you want to succeed in life but they need to be calculated and mitigated the best you can.

 

Did anyone ever vote for a hard, soft, no Deal Brexit? No - so the likes of the Brexit lot on here moaning about democracy... Where is my democracy because I didn't vote for any of those things and neither did anyone else, including yourselfs. Almost anyone you spoke to had different ideals about Brexit, there has been nothing collective about it from day one. I mean 90% of the referendum promises have not been kept, as such I've noticed the amount of nonsensical posters in this thread have stopped say "get over it we won and you lost" now because it's quite obvious they've been led up the garden path and there are no winners as we are all in it together - whether we like each other or hate each other.

 

People genuinely believed we would vote out and that would mean we get to keep £Xbn per year, put it into our own economy and crack on like we had done before while stopping immigrants coming here. Oh, and making our own laws? I think that was a reason? There is no democracy when people (myself included) don't even know exactly what it is they're voting for - it's called being dupped and the ironic thing is Brexit was an anti establishment vote (they say) and the day after the rich became billions of pounds richer and people don't (or can't) see it for what it was.

 

I detest aspects of the EU and the likes of Tusk but equally I'm big enough to see it for what it is. The idea of it is great but it's execution leaves a lot to be desired. It needs a reform. For me the same as Islam, it's a religion desperate for a widespread reform like many other religions have undergone to bring them up to speed with the modern world. It will happen eventually. But to just say "right we're off" from something we helped to build, and then moan about not been given everything we want just makes you a pratt of the highest order. Especially considering its magnitude. Countries like Poland, Hungary et al have lost a close thinking ally in the UK leaving the EU but equally they have no place to go as their dependency on the EU is so great. We could have easily pushed for a reform and created something which is good in theory, even better in reality. Now we go alone to trade with the likes of, well no one knows, India, Brazil, Philippines, Timbuktu - gawd knows, because no one else does. We are guaranteed to now experience more immigration from other parts of the world, adding to our already massively diverse cultural standings in Britain that could potentially be a tipping point in 10/20 years time.

[Thevalefan]

Returning to Brexit, a bit of sense from Greening. Since the politicians cant decide on what to do, return the decision back to the people. A final referendum with 3 choices, no deal, best deal from the EU, stay as we are. 1st and 2nd preference voting to be used to ensure at least a 50% mayority. Assuming of course that the EU give us the option, but since they need us more than we need them, why would they refuse?

 

Downing Street have said no second referendum under any circumstances this morning, so..... If you voted Brexit - nice one. You don't get what you want, we don't get what we want and we now must place all our trust in our imploding government 😂

 

Egg on face or what

[Hagrid]

At least when this shambles ends, us lot who voted remain and haven't wavered will be content in the knowledge that we were right.

[Fosse69]

Downing Street have said no second referendum under any circumstances this morning, so..... If you voted Brexit - nice one. You don't get what you want, we don't get what we want and we now must place all our trust in our imploding government

 

Egg on face or what

Like Downing St said no election. What happens to a barrel when you take the bung out?

[For Us All]

Latest figures issued today show that while net migration is continuing to add to the UK population,the 2017 figure of 282,000 is down from record highs recorded in 2015 and 2016.