Abortion

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Is it also unfair to give a human being a terrible life? For example, what if the woman is severely injured, very young or mentally damaged and is incapable of looking after the child.

 

Adoption is an alternative if the mother cannot cope

 

 

Blame those who are so ignorant rather than end the child's life and help the child rather than end it's life

 

For me, I think it's caring and humane to think about the quality of life a human may get and if it's more compassionate to give people a choice one way or another before that person becomes conscious.

 

For me it's more caring to give the unborn child a shot at life rather than deny it that chance because of what may happen to it

 

What greater compassion is there than to do everything for an unborn child than to care for it in every way possible, to protect it.

 

You mention punishing the guilty rapist but I think you can also punish an innocent victim by forcing them into one path (to have a baby) and an innocent child by bringing them into the world in circumstances that could lead them to have an awful life.

 

The path has been forced upon them by the rapist

 

I find it staggering that a life should be ended cos it might turn out to be awful..might!!!

 

Ultimately, I still think that the women, who is carrying the child, who should have the final say.

 

Why should the unborn child have no rights just cos it is so young? We can't force a path onto the mother but we can force one onto the unborn child?

[robf]

In what way isn't it?

 

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/baby amongst many others defines an unborn fetus as a baby

 

Yes, but a fetus develops at eleven weeks. Abortions are usually undertaken before eleven weeks during the embryonic stage. So, the point that a fetus is defined as a baby has no relevance to any abortions undertaken in the first eleven weeks.

[robf]

Adoption is an alternative if the mother cannot cope

 

So you're forcing a child into a life of adoption without giving it any choice?

 

I find it staggering that a life should be ended cos it might turn out to be awful..might!!!

 

I don't think you are ending it. Preventing a life from occurring is not the same as ending it in my opinion.

 

Look at it in cheesy football parlance. If Vale's game on Sunday is called off the day before then you aren't "ending" the match, because it never started in the first place.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Yes, but a fetus develops at eleven weeks. Abortions are usually undertaken before eleven weeks during the embryonic stage. So, the point that a fetus is defined as a baby has no relevance to any abortions undertaken in the first eleven weeks.

 

In what way is it not a baby was my question..the argument was that it isn't a baby..in what way isn't it?

[Michael]

In what way isn't it?

 

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/baby amongst many others defines an unborn fetus as a baby

 

Of course you could then discuss the morality of when as individuals we each think the point is when a bunch of cells become a fetus but it will be debated forever and a day and I think the only conclusion we can come to is nobody has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body and that she should map the rest of her life out one way or the other because of the physical and emotional circumstances she may have to face as a result of being told by the law she has to do one thing or another. I'm lucky enough to have 2 beautiful healthy children born into a loving marriage but all circumstances are different so it's upto individuals to make personal choices without fear of people taking moral judgment on them.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

So you're forcing a child into a life of adoption without giving it any choice?

 

Not at all..I said it's an alternative.

 

 

I don't think you are ending it. Preventing a life from occurring is not the same as ending it in my opinion.

 

Life begins at conception..the development of a unique (ignoring twins etc) human being begins at that point

 

Look at it in cheesy football parlance. If Vale's game on Sunday is called off the day before then you aren't "ending" the match, because it never started in the first place.

 

That's a postponement..the match can take place later...with an abortion there is no second chance for the child. What you have described is akin to freezing sperm and eggs to be used later..simply postponing life cos it never started..totally different

[robf]

In what way is it not a baby was my question..the argument was that it isn't a baby..in what way isn't it?

 

1. In a dictionary definition sense. The very same dictionary you mentioned says an embryo is not a fetus and therefore not a baby.

 

2. In a UK legal sense - https://embryo-ethics.smd.qmul.ac.uk/tutorials/embryo-and-the-law/english-law-foetus/

 

3. However, there's clearly a widespread debate on it which is referred to here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/child/alive_1.shtml It's clear that views differ as to whether it is, when it is and so on. However, just as I would concede that some viewpoints do see an embryo as a human clearly other people will disagree with you that is is a baby.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Of course you could then discuss the morality of when as individuals we each think the point is when a bunch of cells become a fetus

 

Conception

 

but it will be debated forever and a day and I think the only conclusion we can come to is nobody has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body

 

You are making the assumption that there is one body involved..there is another..the unborn child. I am in o way telling her what to do any more than anyone tells her not to harm her 4 year old daughter (for example)

 

 

and that she should map the rest of her life out one way or the other because of the physical and emotional circumstances she may have to face as a result of being told by the law she has to do one thing or another. I'm lucky enough to have 2 beautiful healthy children born into a loving marriage but all circumstances are different so it's upto individuals to make personal choices without fear of people taking moral judgment on them.

 

By extension that means anyone can do anything they like if they disagree with someone elses morals.

[robf]

That's a postponement..the match can take place later...with an abortion there is no second chance for the child.

 

No it's not - the match on Sunday the 4th December 2016 would never take place. Another game will take place at a different time, but that specific game will never exist due to the postponement.

 

If my train's cancelled today then the train will never exist. I may get a different train with a different set of people at a different time but the original train journey would never take place.

 

Ergo - the train journey hasn't been "ended", it never existed.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

1. In a dictionary definition sense. The very same dictionary you mentioned says an embryo is not a fetus and therefore not a baby.

 

2. In a UK legal sense - https://embryo-ethics.smd.qmul.ac.uk/tutorials/embryo-and-the-law/english-law-foetus/

 

3. However, there's clearly a widespread debate on it which is referred to here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/child/alive_1.shtml It's clear that views differ as to whether it is, when it is and so on. However, just as I would concede that some viewpoints do see an embryo as a human when clearly other people will disagree with you that is is a baby.

 

Of course there are differing opinions..but I'm of the opinion that I am trying to save the lives of unborn children..so I aint going to stop..why would I given such a noble cause

[robf]

BTW, Johnny I am now stepping out of this debate.

 

I believe I can see your point of view. If you believe life and a baby begins with conception then I can understand your viewpoint on abortion being wrong.

 

However, I don't believe life begins with conception and therefore I don't feel that some abortions are wrong (although clearly it depends on circumstances).

 

However, this debate on when human life "begins" is one that has been discussed and argued for hundreds of years and with all due respect to the OVF forum, if medical experts haven't been able to decide then I doubt this forum will provide the answer.

 

So, with that in mind, I would say that I respect your point of view even if I disagree with you and I'm bowing out of the debate.

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

[JOHNNYAITCH]

No it's not - the match on Sunday the 4th December 2016 would never take place. Another game will take place at a different time, but that specific game will never exist due to the postponement.

 

If my train's cancelled today then the train will never exist. I may get a different train with a different set of people at a different time but the original train journey would never take place.

 

Ergo - the train journey hasn't been "ended", it never existed.

 

The human life has started so it has been ended.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

BTW, Johnny I am now stepping out of this debate.

 

I believe I can see your point of view. If you believe life and a baby begins with conception then I can understand your viewpoint on abortion being wrong.

 

However, I don't believe life begins with conception and therefore I don't feel that some abortions are wrong (although clearly it depends on circumstances).

 

However, this debate on when human life "begins" is one that has been discussed and argued for hundreds of years and with all due respect to the OVF forum, if medical experts haven't been able to decide then I doubt this forum will provide the answer.

 

Fairynuff..but I'm not giving up..if I can stop one abortion it's worth it

[geosname]

DATE MOTHER AGE FATHER

 

May 14, 1939 Lina Medina 5 years,7 months Unknown

 

August 19, 1934 Yelizaveta "Liza" Gryshchenko 6 years Her 70-year-old maternal grandfather

 

January 12, 1993 Zulma Guadalupe Morales 8 years Her uncle

 

Thats 3 of the ten youngest mothers ever.... would you MAKE them go through childbirth?... or should it be a choice?

 

In 2015, an estimated 303,000 women will die from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth. In addition, for every woman who dies in childbirth, dozens more suffer injury, infection or disease. [WHO]

 

shouldnt they choose?

[Jacko51]

Very true..but I don't understand how anyone can be so concerned for one person but in the same breath end the life of another

 

And I don't understand how you can express so much concern about an unborn foetus at the expense of the psychological and mental well being of another. Do you remember being in your mother's womb 12 weeks after conception? Were you a sentient being at that stage a group of slowly developing cells?

 

Your original post quotes mine from the other thread without acknowledging it's authorship. I stand by what I said in that and I would also point out the most significant factor of all in this discussion - you are not a woman. You can have no conception (if you'll pardon the pun) of how rape affects a woman. I suggest you ackoweldge this before you contribute further to this debate. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion but I believe you are simply wrong.