Closed thread on Castro

[JOHNNYAITCH]

If they were getting it all right, who would take notice of anyone trying to subvert them?

 

Good question

 

However, people are people..if they are told something often enough from enough sources some will start to believe it....the old there is no smoke without fire argument

[Howjy04]

He also kept this company - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/06/nelson-mandela-castro_n_4400212.html - and a lot more closely it seems.

 

Did Mandela re-educate white South Africans in the same way the non-racist,non-homophobic,non-dissident murderer,Castro did for Black and Gay Cubans?Genuine question.What wonderful legacies these two have left.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I wonder what would happen to anyone in Cuba that did show dissent regarding the death of Castro or didn't show grief? I don't know the answer but I do know if I was going to be locked up and tortured if I didn't show enough grief I'd have the Kleenex out in a second.

[Aussie Rules]

I wonder what would happen to anyone in Cuba that did show dissent regarding the death of Castro or didn't show grief? I don't know the answer but I do know if I was going to be locked up and tortured if I didn't show enough grief I'd have the Kleenex out in a second.

 

I'm guessing the same as Nth Korea JA.

[sandbach_valiant]

I'm guessing the same as Nth Korea JA.

For the many faults of Castro and the Cuban regime, they are still a far cry from North Korea.

[sandbach_valiant]

Did Mandela re-educate white South Africans in the same way the non-racist,non-homophobic,non-dissident murderer,Castro did for Black and Gay Cubans?Genuine question.What wonderful legacies these two have left.

The Cuban regime's treatment of gay people and its attitudes towards race were horrendous.

 

Thankfully the former improved enormously in the 90s and has continued to do so, to the point that Cuba is considered to currently be very progressive on LGBTQ rights. That, though, doesn't and shouldn't absolve Castro or the regime of the suffering they forced on people.

 

I would also say that its important to look at the record of our own country (Section 28 and the fact that homosexuality was still illegal in NI until the 1980s) and our allies, namely Saudi Arabia. Bearing in mind too that David Cameron had the flag flown at half mast for King Abdullah, a despot who had a horrific human rights record.

 

Its also worth pointing out that the Vice President-elect, Mike Pence, who supports giving businesses the right to discriminate against gay people (Religious Freedom Restoration Act) and argued that funding for HIV treatment should focus on services which advise people on how to 'change their sexual behaviour', rather than those that 'promote' homosexuality.

 

That's not to equate all of these issues, but if people are debating Castro's record on LGBTQ rights its a good opportunity to highlight and try to tackle problems around the world too.

 

Also, are you suggesting that Mandela's legacy may not be positive?

[Howjy04]

The Cuban regime's treatment of gay people and its attitudes towards race were horrendous.

 

Thankfully the former improved enormously in the 90s and has continued to do so, to the point that Cuba is considered to currently be very progressive on LGBTQ rights. That, though, doesn't and shouldn't absolve Castro or the regime of the suffering they forced on people.

 

I would also say that its important to look at the record of our own country (Section 28 and the fact that homosexuality was still illegal in NI until the 1980s) and our allies, namely Saudi Arabia. Bearing in mind too that David Cameron had the flag flown at half mast for King Abdullah, a despot who had a horrific human rights record.

 

Its also worth pointing out that the Vice President-elect, Mike Pence, who supports giving businesses the right to discriminate against gay people (Religious Freedom Restoration Act) and argued that funding for HIV treatment should focus on services which advise people on how to 'change their sexual behaviour', rather than those that 'promote' homosexuality.

 

That's not to equate all of these issues, but if people are debating Castro's record on LGBTQ rights its a good opportunity to highlight and try to tackle problems around the world too.

 

Also, are you suggesting that Mandela's legacy may not be positive?

Apartheid was abhorrent,Mandela's legacy could be described as positive until you look at the corruptness of the people he entrusted to take the country forward.The very people who he tried to free from apartheid are still living in squalor and oppression.Not really a good judge of character our Nelson?

[JOHNNYAITCH]

 

Its also worth pointing out that the Vice President-elect, Mike Pence, who supports giving businesses the right to discriminate against gay people (Religious Freedom Restoration Act)

 

That's a somewhat simplistic interpretation IMO but for me his attitudes on this are at best questionable and ignorant

[Yukon]

I feel I have to post that I am disappointed that a tribute opening post was spoilt by ant-semitic remarks, opinions that people should be murdered and the like - and that Admin have allowed these remarks to cause the thread to be closed.

 

I can only hope that equal vigilance will be shown against the anti-Jewish remark posted by Houston Valiant, and that it is not just removed and forgotten.

 

I feel I have to post that I think it's a bit disappointg a thread can be closed and Bea Smith thinks it's okay to re-open it

[sandbach_valiant]

That's a somewhat simplistic interpretation IMO but for me his attitudes on this are at best questionable and ignorant

That might be fair but, IMO, the bill contains a simplistic goal.

 

I'd be interested to see a more in-depth view of the bill though.

 

I would say that they are beyond questionable. He is devoted to them and has pursued them over decades. He's a homophobic zealot, not a misguided fool.

[sandbach_valiant]

Apartheid was abhorrent,Mandela's legacy could be described as positive until you look at the corruptness of the people he entrusted to take the country forward.The very people who he tried to free from apartheid are still living in squalor and oppression.Not really a good judge of character our Nelson?

I would largely agree with that to be fair, the ANC was quickly corrupted and Zuma et al have done virtually nothing for those they're meant to represent.

 

I'd maybe put less blame on Mandela for what has come since. But equally he could have done much more when he was in power - redistribution of wealth etc.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

In defence of Mandela et al it's only been some 25 ish years since he was released from prison and only just over 20 years since he became president..it will take much longer to 'fix' South Africa. What's been achieved in that short time is remarkable..but much more to be done.

[Aussie Rules]

I feel I have to post that I think it's a bit disappointg a thread can be closed and Bea Smith thinks it's okay to re-open it

 

G'day Bon'Ami,

 

Bea Smith did ask Admin. before starting this thread.

 

Clearly it's a highly emotional topic with the only downside for me seeing several posters aiming unnecessary 'personal remarks' at each other.

 

That said, it's a great conversation.

[Bea Smith]

I feel I have to post that I think it's a bit disappointg a thread can be closed and Bea Smith thinks it's okay to re-open it

 

 

Why not contribute your own insights to the thread, as said there have been many fascinating points brought up even if some are a bit off-topic. That isn't meant to be sarcastic either.

 

One thing I will say is that I'm sure the people of Cuba are not being forced to show false grief, as even if anyone chooses to be stubborn enough to ignore the pictures of people queuing for 5 hours to sign memorial books, the BBC and other unbiased reporters there have given loads of verbal and written reports of genuine feelings of sorrow and respect.

 

They have been allowed to choose who they interview or ask about feelings and not 'fed' propaganda.

 

I really don't think Cuba is anything like North Korea, in the latter you cannot visit as a tourist and wander freely and ask opinion. A very unfair comparison, when some of our own allies (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain) are very much more like North Korea.

 

As pointed out in another post about who Castro kept company with, all countries and all politicians have some rather dubious bedfellows, particularly (again, as said) Cameron flying our flag at half mast for a Saudi leader that died when that country is probably actually one of the worst around for freedom, rights and repressive measures.

 

Of course, the US fawned similarly, although to his credit Obama and a few others have criticised Saudi Arabia though rather mildly. The point is, Castro just talking to North Korea meant virtually nothing.

 

Nelson Mandela is also a great hero, who again could have done a lot better, but was faced with the horrific problems in South Africa.

 

Perhaps that would make an interesting other thread. Certainly the fact that apartheid was defeated in South Africa owes no small amount to Cuba helping Angola and fighting the white South AFrican army for many years in Angola, also allowing that country eventually to get rid of the wrong people trying to control it.

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

Who is going to start the next thread on Castro the Dictator?