Evolution v Creationism

[robf]

Dear Mods

 

Can someone have a word with Warren? His comments in this thread have reached a new low and has compared Diane Abbott to Hitler. Ms Abbott would find that comment not only objectionable but also defamatory. Given that Warren has named an actual person in such a racist disgraceful way does not reflect well on this forum or indeed the overwhelming decent majority on here. OVF could find itself in trouble unless that post is deleted.

 

Thanks

:mad:

 

Not true - all posts on here are the views of the poster only, not OVF. If any defamation action is taken it will be against the individual poster and not the website as per our disclaimer - "Views expressed in the forum are those of the individual contributors."

 

Incidently, if you wish to contact the site admin please EMAIL us - again, through our disclaimer we also clearly state that we do not read all posts ("... the forum is NOT constantly monitored. If you have any concerns about a message or member please contact the team through this link") so a random post on a thread calling for us to take action is not really the best approach!

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Some good points...I find abortion morally wrong in all circumstances

 

I am absolutely confident that the vast majority of abortions are not entered into lightly

 

if abortion was against the law what would happen to all those children you seem to want to save?

 

Why do youi say 'seem to want to save'? They would be born, if they have a life threatening condition some will die, others will stay with their parent(s), others will be taken into care, others will be adopted etc etc. One thing for certain, they won't be killed before they are born and will get a shot at life

 

You saying that being killed is better than being in a work camp? So the final solution was better than being in a work camp? Extreme I know but for me a logical conclusion from your point

 

I know of a work colleague who is currently going down the abortion route; a very difficult choice and one that she is still wrestling with despite having made an appt for the procedure..it's hard, unimaginably hard for the overwhelming majority. But I fundamentally disdagree with the path that she has chosen

[JOHNNYAITCH]

How on earth can you suggest the one source of peace is Christ? How many wars and murders have there been in the name of religion? You, like a lot of American's are puddled.

 

That's cos humans are fallible and God allows us to be fallible..I suspect that is the argument but could be wrong

 

If it weren't religion, it would be something else (wealth, land etc etc)

[geosname]

Some good points...I find abortion morally wrong in all circumstances

 

I am absolutely confident that the vast majority of abortions are not entered into lightly

 

 

 

Why do youi say 'seem to want to save'? They would be born, if they have a life threatening condition some will die, others will stay with their parent(s), others will be taken into care, others will be adopted etc etc. One thing for certain, they won't be killed before they are born and will get a shot at life

 

You saying that being killed is better than being in a work camp? So the final solution was better than being in a work camp? Extreme I know but for me a logical conclusion from your point

 

I know of a work colleague who is currently going down the abortion route; a very difficult choice and one that she is still wrestling with despite having made an appt for the procedure..it's hard, unimaginably hard for the overwhelming majority. But I fundamentally disdagree with the path that she has chosen

 

I didnt say what you think I said.....

save as in not being aborted... where do I say being killed is better than work camps?.... I didnt say the final solution was better than anything at all... did you choose to misread?.... misinterpret?

Warren compared abortion to the final solution..... I pointed out that the alternative could be part of the final solution... the work camps were not set up to save people, they were worked to death.... given warrens comparatives to mass slaughter I just turned them slightly to point out his final solution was no better.

I have a problem with abortion.... simply as a man I dont feel qualified to pass judgement on women who take the very difficult decision.... I can think of many reasons why abortion should not be outlawed but very few to outlaw it.

You may disagree with your work colleagues choice but do you disagree with her right to choose?

[geosname]

That's cos humans are fallible and God allows us to be fallible..I suspect that is the argument but could be wrong

 

If it weren't religion, it would be something else (wealth, land etc etc)

 

Doesnt that raise the argument that all the religious killings done in the name of god because the killers believe the bible are not believers at all?.... how can the people who believe in the word of god, the bible, be fallible?... doesnt that make god... through his word.... fallible?

[Warren]

What about the possibility that some women are not responsible for "creating"?

You say 4,000,000 abortions are needlessly carried out each year..... if abortion was against the law what would happen to all those children you seem to want to save?

You say a lot of people agree with you...... lots of people agreed with hitler.... did that make him right?

If 4,000,000 babies are saved by your views wont that create a situation similar to the work camps set up by the Nazis... in some countries... does that mean you are like hitler?

 

You may be highly qualified but you dont sound very intelligent... you rant on about abortion being wrong but never discuss the situations women/girls find themselves in that my make them want to take that path.... you seem to group all women into the "easy rout" category because its easier to argue from your perspective.... do you have any idea what its like to have an abortion?... I have some idea but being a man I can only grasp the nettle from the outside... even that isnt an easy place to be.

 

40,000,000 not 4,000,000 - keep up.

[Warren]

Whilst I disagree with much of what Warren posts I admire his continuous attempts to put forward his views in an eloquent manner...the insults and accusations against him are for me in breach of the rules of this MB.

 

Thank you for this.

 

Some posters seem to have made assumptions that are incorrect in their abuse and in fact are wholly at my mercy.

[geosname]

40,000,000 not 4,000,000 - keep up.

 

Because I miss a 0 it invalidates the point does it?

What about the other points? wont your belief let you consider anything else? the reasons why? their consequences? the ramifications?

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I didnt say what you think I said.....

 

My point was why use the word seem

 

 

save as in not being aborted... where do I say being killed is better than work camps?.... I didnt say the final solution was better than anything at all... did you choose to misread?.... misinterpret?]

 

Not at all..you suggested that a baby being killed before it was born was better than it ending up in a work camp..so it follows that killing people who have been born would be better than them being in a work camp

 

You may disagree with your work colleagues choice but do you disagree with her right to choose?

 

No abortion as an option should not be available..the unborn child after all has no choice

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Doesnt that raise the argument that all the religious killings done in the name of god because the killers believe the bible are not believers at all?

 

Perhaps some were not, perhaps others misinterpreted it

 

.... how can the people who believe in the word of god, the bible, be fallible?... doesnt that make god... through his word.... fallible?

 

No..very easy for fallible humans to not eally understand the Bible..as we have seen on this forum

 

It's not supposed to be easy

[geosname]

My point was why use the word seem

 

 

 

 

Not at all..you suggested that a baby being killed before it was born was better than it ending up in a work camp..so it follows that killing people who have been born would be better than them being in a work camp

 

 

 

No abortion as an option should not be available..the unborn child after all has no choice

 

I didnt suggest that at all

 

So if no abortion should be an option what should happen if a woman is gang raped beaten into a coma and it would kill the woman not to terminate..... there is no option? the woman should die? she doesnt get an option because of the coma but her next of kin should... or should they kill her save the baby and give it to social services to look after?

 

I use the word seem to suggest that sometimes not having an abortion doesnt save the baby.... it may save it from death [temporarily] but not from life.... Im not altogether convinced warren wants to save the babies he just has the opinion that he doesnt agree with abortion.... but then we come back to the question of where life starts... warren seems to believe it starts at fertilisation.... I disagree.... warren and yourself seem to believe that a 12 year old girl raped and abused should be forced to carry to full term then give the baby up.... isnt one trauma [the rape] enough for a 12 year old? does she have to endure another 9 months of trauma followed by the trauma of birth and then the trauma of giving it up [or not]... Hasnt she suffered enough?

Would you do that to your daughter?

[geosname]

Perhaps some were not, perhaps others misinterpreted it

 

 

 

No..very easy for fallible humans to not eally understand the Bible..as we have seen on this forum

 

It's not supposed to be easy

 

So you seem to be suggesting that the bible should be bent to fit only good things...... is an eye for an eye a good thing?.... Thou shalt not kill?... so believers starve to death or live off road kill?.... or do we disregard that bit because it doesnt fit or redefine it to make it fit...

as stated before... religion is a shield from reality.... somewhere to hide when the proverbial hits the fan and life stinks.

If you cant take the word of god literally whats it good for?

[SuperValiant1876]

Whilst I disagree with much of what Warren posts I admire his continuous attempts to put forward his views in an eloquent manner...the insults and accusations against him are for me in breach of the rules of this MB.

 

Hitler wrote a good speech, didn't he?

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I didnt suggest that at all

 

So if no abortion should be an option what should happen if a woman is gang raped beaten into a coma and it would kill the woman not to terminate..... there is no option? the woman should die? she doesnt get an option because of the coma but her next of kin should... or should they kill her save the baby and give it to social services to look after?

 

What's the point in putting any scenarios to me when I have made it perfevtly clear that I am against abortion in all circumstances

 

I use the word seem to suggest that sometimes not having an abortion doesnt save the baby.... it may save it from death [temporarily] but not from life.... Im not altogether convinced warren wants to save the babies he just has the opinion that he doesnt agree with abortion

 

Why don't you just ask him?

 

.... but then we come back to the question of where life starts... warren seems to believe it starts at fertilisation.... I disagree....

 

I agree with Warren

 

warren and yourself seem to believe that a 12 year old girl raped and abused should be forced to carry to full term then give the baby up

 

One option yes..better than an unborn baby being killed

 

.... isnt one trauma [the rape] enough for a 12 year old? does she have to endure another 9 months of trauma followed by the trauma of birth and then the trauma of giving it up [or not]... Hasnt she suffered enough?

 

She has suffered enormously but I don't see it as a reason to kill an unborn baby

 

 

Would you do that to your daughter?

 

 

I belive that I would..I could not support the killing of my unborn grandson/granddaughter

[JOHNNYAITCH]

So you seem to be suggesting that the bible should be bent to fit only good things

 

I didn't suggest that at all

 

The Bible is fiction so people will do what they want with it

 

...... is an eye for an eye a good thing?.... Thou shalt not kill?... so believers starve to death or live off road kill?.... or do we disregard that bit because it doesnt fit or redefine it to make it fit...

as stated before... religion is a shield from reality.... somewhere to hide when the proverbial hits the fan and life stinks.

If you cant take the word of god literally whats it good for?

 

You need to get a better understanding of what the Bible says and actually means by what it says..poarables, allegoriocal stories etc etc. It is not meant to be taken literally..although some do.

 

It is however, fiction but the stories can and do have meaning