Brexit again...

[Fosse69]

The one that is appointed by the prime minister.

How would you change it? A government is formed by the leader of the largest party, or next largest party, or by coalition. Is there anywhere in the world that uses a different system?

[Thevalefan]

The Government isn't elected for starters.

 

I know democracy isn't very high up on your priorities but that's a simple one that I cannot get past.

 

I'll make one exception for your last line though - I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

 

My "logic" is actually a fact. Unless you are claiming that false information does not exist and therefore why the **** do you keep banging on about it?

 

Hey, look at that, I've managed a post without a single smiley.

 

Alright, I didn't word it very well but a general election was held 2015 with Brexit on the agenda. Conservatives were to do Brexit at that point, so where was the plan?

 

Of course, unless you think we made a good approach to Brexit and think we've done a good job so far? (wouldn't surprise me haha)

 

How can you possibly fathom that one? You yourself have admitted some massive fibs from the leave campaign. If you think telling people 10's of millions of turks are coming here, or we'll spend our money elsewhere and we'll 'thrive' outside the EU - all thinks that are not going to happen - will not influence people's decisions to vote then there is no helping you in this debate. Your basically arguing that political campaigns don't influence people's decisions as we all "know" what was going to happen. It's a ridiculous argument because your desperately frightened people really have changed their minds, you just refuse too. The amount of lads in Stoke I've met in the pub who voted out to stop Muslims coming was a reason I knew remaining alone was a good idea. Sajid Javid will be in control of who comes here now and more non EU immigration has increased and from Islamic countries too. Those lads didn't have a clue and all voted Leave. Is that democracy for the country? They didn't even get what leaving means they just want no more Muslims.

 

You'll say "leave said it will put us in a recession" as their lie - well, dgp down 2.5% growth massively slowed down, £ has dropped and jobs leaving before Brexit. No deal will send £ into oblivion over night and will take ages to get its power back. Our own Treasury has been buying up billions of euros luckily anticipating this. Oh were bottom of G7 now - so maybe not a full blown recession but we've not left with any kind of deal yet so we'll wait and see. HOPEFULLY NOT tho.

 

There is no fact in your logic mate, it's an opinion. Your logic means we are not allowed to changed our minds, for an X amount of years. We voted out in 2016, we'll probably be in EU through transition to 2021 and a vote around then which will see us overwhelming stay in. The whole things a proper pointless thing to do.

 

How can I be anti-democractic when I believe in another democratic decision made by the people and not our government who have the final say? 😂 😂 Makes no sense.

 

I don't expect smileys from you RB, you come across as the most uninteresting and miserable one out of all the gammoners on here. Try it though, I dare you, go nuts 😀😀

[Thevalefan]

Brexit literally has gone from our politicians telling us it will be brilliant, we'll be global and do more trade, it will only benefit Britain. It was going to be "the easiest deal in history" .

 

Now we're being told it won't be the end of the world, 'it won't be quite as bad as we though' and we'll start seeing benefits of the vote (hopefully) in a few decades to come.

[Family Stand Terrier]

Alright, I didn't word it very well but a general election was held 2015 with Brexit on the agenda. Conservatives were to do Brexit at that point, so where was the plan?

 

Of course, unless you think we made a good approach to Brexit and think we've done a good job so far? (wouldn't surprise me haha)

 

How can you possibly fathom that one? You yourself have admitted some massive fibs from the leave campaign. If you think telling people 10's of millions of turks are coming here, or we'll spend our money elsewhere and we'll 'thrive' outside the EU - all thinks that are not going to happen - will not influence people's decisions to vote then there is no helping you in this debate. Your basically arguing that political campaigns don't influence people's decisions as we all "know" what was going to happen. It's a ridiculous argument because your desperately frightened people really have changed their minds, you just refuse too. The amount of lads in Stoke I've met in the pub who voted out to stop Muslims coming was a reason I knew remaining alone was a good idea. Sajid Javid will be in control of who comes here now and more non EU immigration has increased and from Islamic countries too. Those lads didn't have a clue and all voted Leave. Is that democracy for the country? They didn't even get what leaving means they just want no more Muslims.

 

You'll say "leave said it will put us in a recession" as their lie - well, dgp down 2.5% growth massively slowed down, £ has dropped and jobs leaving before Brexit. No deal will send £ into oblivion over night and will take ages to get its power back. Our own Treasury has been buying up billions of euros luckily anticipating this. Oh were bottom of G7 now - so maybe not a full blown recession but we've not left with any kind of deal yet so we'll wait and see. HOPEFULLY NOT tho.

 

There is no fact in your logic mate, it's an opinion. Your logic means we are not allowed to changed our minds, for an X amount of years. We voted out in 2016, we'll probably be in EU through transition to 2021 and a vote around then which will see us overwhelming stay in. The whole things a proper pointless thing to do.

 

How can I be anti-democractic when I believe in another democratic decision made by the people and not our government who have the final say? 😂 😂 Makes no sense.

 

I don't expect smileys from you RB, you come across as the most uninteresting and miserable one out of all the gammoners on here. Try it though, I dare you, go nuts 😀😀

 

I think the GE you refer to, with Brexit on the agenda was 2017.

 

You then suggest that RB thinks the gov't are making a good job of Brexit...and then ask how he fathom's that one...you just fathomed it, in your imagination, then ran with it as fact.

 

You then state that there's no fact, all opinion, but go on to suggest that a 2nd referendum in 2021 will result in an overwhelming vote to stay in. Is that fact, or opinion?

 

You then refer to RB as a "gammoner". I've seen this term thrown around quite frequently recently, usually from far left Antifa types. Could you please explain the term for me? I get the impression it's meant in a derogatory way, is that a fair assumption?

[Thevalefan]

I think the GE you refer to, with Brexit on the agenda was 2017.

 

You then suggest that RB thinks the gov't are making a good job of Brexit...and then ask how he fathom's that one...you just fathomed it, in your imagination, then ran with it as fact.

 

You then state that there's no fact, all opinion, but go on to suggest that a 2nd referendum in 2021 will result in an overwhelming vote to stay in. Is that fact, or opinion?

 

You then refer to RB as a "gammoner". I've seen this term thrown around quite frequently recently, usually from far left Antifa types. Could you please explain the term for me? I get the impression it's meant in a derogatory way, is that a fair assumption?

 

Brexit was on the ballot paper in 2015 - the Conservatives had promised a referendum by 2017 if they won the election (unles we got some concessions on our membership). Didn't get what they wanted from the EU and then Brexit was inevitably going to happen. So where was the plan, was it from then until a few months ago when they came up with Chequers? Conservatives have not recovered from 2017 GE

 

No, I know he's not as this is ongoing from his points Brexit hasn't had a fair chance yet, which I agreeded with by emphasising the point the Govt hasn't had a proper plan in place that's got enough backing for us all to go with. If we did, then Remainers couldn't moan because it's all been based on something rather than just "shall we leave?". I asked how he fathomed I am anti democratic, not how he fathomed the Govt are doing a good job. I know he doesn't think that.

 

No. I stated his logic is opinion and not fatual ref his views on democracy/referenda. Democracy is a never ending process and in reality can be called whenever, even if people don't agree with them. 1.7m marched against Blaires war on Iraq, everyone said no to it and they still went ahead with it anyway. That wasn't democratic, but happened in a democracy.

 

I did exactly that by saying 'probably' which makes it opinion based. An opinion I have because of looking at voting demographics and polls on Brexit. Could be wrong though.

 

Everyone is so sensitive on this forum!! It's clearly a derogatory term but only to his politics not to him as a person. Like being called a snowflake.

[Family Stand Terrier]

Brexit was on the ballot paper in 2015 - the Conservatives had promised a referendum by 2017 if they won the election (unles we got some concessions on our membership). Didn't get what they wanted from the EU and then Brexit was inevitably going to happen. So where was the plan, was it from then until a few months ago when they came up with Chequers? Conservatives have not recovered from 2017 GE

 

No, I know he's not as this is ongoing from his points Brexit hasn't had a fair chance yet, which I agreeded with by emphasising the point the Govt hasn't had a proper plan in place that's got enough backing for us all to go with. If we did, then Remainers couldn't moan because it's all been based on something rather than just "shall we leave?". I asked how he fathomed I am anti democratic, not how he fathomed the Govt are doing a good job. I know he doesn't think that.

 

No. I stated his logic is opinion and not fatual ref his views on democracy/referenda. Democracy is a never ending process and in reality can be called whenever, even if people don't agree with them. 1.7m marched against Blaires war on Iraq, everyone said no to it and they still went ahead with it anyway. That wasn't democratic, but happened in a democracy.

 

I did exactly that by saying 'probably' which makes it opinion based. An opinion I have because of looking at voting demographics and polls on Brexit. Could be wrong though.

 

Everyone is so sensitive on this forum!! It's clearly a derogatory term but only to his politics not to him as a person. Like being called a snowflake.

 

I'm not sensitive. I've asked you a genuine question about the term gammoner. I don't know why it's used. Do you?

 

I'll reply to the rest of your post later. Not got the time at the moment. 👍

[Thevalefan]

It's basically a jibe at right wing Daily Mail readers, white middle-older aged males who get red in the face screaming out means out. I'll even accept using it myself it is cringe-worthy.

 

No worries.

 

I really am not saying I know anything for a fact. An underlying argument of Remainers in this thread since I joined it has been people say things without being able to back up why they think those things. I mean a few posts ago, Howjy spoke about Santandar and didn't even read the article properly, RB added to his sentiments on the same point - and when you read the article it's basically a report on nothing. I'm only here opposing people's views because I think it's mad they just say things they can't even reason to someone. On big political things like Brexit too. I can go back to many points - immigration, can be controlled to desired levels but isn't. I've explained my reasoning behind saying that. Economy, I'm back up my points based on the data available provided by accredited authorities. If I just said Brexit will be bad for the economy, without saying why - it makes me look an idiot.

[Jacko51]

The one that is appointed by the prime minister.

 

Are you saying we need to have a referendum to appoint each member of the Cabinet??? Of course the Government is elected. You elect the party which you want to form the Government.

[Howjy04]

It's basically a jibe at right wing Daily Mail readers, white middle-older aged males who get red in the face screaming out means out. I'll even accept using it myself it is cringe-worthy.

 

No worries.

 

I really am not saying I know anything for a fact. An underlying argument of Remainers in this thread since I joined it has been people say things without being able to back up why they think those things. I mean a few posts ago, Howjy spoke about Santandar and didn't even read the article properly, RB added to his sentiments on the same point - and when you read the article it's basically a report on nothing. I'm only here opposing people's views because I think it's mad they just say things they can't even reason to someone. On big political things like Brexit too. I can go back to many points - immigration, can be controlled to desired levels but isn't. I've explained my reasoning behind saying that. Economy, I'm back up my points based on the data available provided by accredited authorities. If I just said Brexit will be bad for the economy, without saying why - it makes me look an idiot.

It wasn’t me that referred to Santander,tvf.I referred to Gibraltar,the Spanish HS train company investing in the UK and the woeful economic state of Italy although they are in the EU.

[Jacko51]

It wasn’t me that referred to Santander,tvf.I referred to Gibraltar,the Spanish HS train company investing in the UK and the woeful economic state of Italy although they are in the EU.

 

Is Germany in a woeful state in the EU? Perhaps the EU isn't the problem in Italy?

[Family Stand Terrier]

Brexit was on the ballot paper in 2015 - the Conservatives had promised a referendum by 2017 if they won the election (unles we got some concessions on our membership). Didn't get what they wanted from the EU and then Brexit was inevitably going to happen. So where was the plan, was it from then until a few months ago when they came up with Chequers? Conservatives have not recovered from 2017 GE

 

No, I know he's not as this is ongoing from his points Brexit hasn't had a fair chance yet, which I agreeded with by emphasising the point the Govt hasn't had a proper plan in place that's got enough backing for us all to go with. If we did, then Remainers couldn't moan because it's all been based on something rather than just "shall we leave?". I asked how he fathomed I am anti democratic, not how he fathomed the Govt are doing a good job. I know he doesn't think that.

 

No. I stated his logic is opinion and not fatual ref his views on democracy/referenda. Democracy is a never ending process and in reality can be called whenever, even if people don't agree with them. 1.7m marched against Blaires war on Iraq, everyone said no to it and they still went ahead with it anyway. That wasn't democratic, but happened in a democracy.

 

I did exactly that by saying 'probably' which makes it opinion based. An opinion I have because of looking at voting demographics and polls on Brexit. Could be wrong though.

 

Everyone is so sensitive on this forum!! It's clearly a derogatory term but only to his politics not to him as a person. Like being called a snowflake.

 

Apologies if I confused your original post, but it came across as though the conservatives should have been planning for Brexit at the time of the GE in 2015. A referendum was in their manifesto, which a lot of conservatives campaigned against. I don't think Brexit was inevitable at all. I remember waking up on the Friday morning shocked at the outcome, as I think were many others.

 

Again, apologies for the confusion on the next point, but I read it as follows; "unless you think we made a good approach to Brexit and think we've done a good job so far? (wouldn't surprise me haha).

How can you possibly fathom that one?" It wasn't clear what it was that you were asking that he'd fathomed.

 

You refer to the decision to go to war in Iraq as "not democratic", but there was never a referendum on it. Yes over a million marched, but you can't gauge from that that "everyone" was against it, therefore use it as an example of an undemocratic action. An elected government went ahead with it.

 

Your point about "gammoners" being "right wing daily mail readers, white middle-older aged males" I find staggering. Anything right of Corbyn has become far right. The term far right, along with racist, bigot,or nazi, has been used so intensively and indiscriminately that they've lost their true meaning. For me it demonstrates a worrying trend being adopted by the left, whereby any opinions other than their own, are no longer debated like adults, but shut down as right wing, or fueling hate, the irony being that it's them that have shown horrendous levels of hatred over the last 2 years particularly, and further back for as long as the conservatives have been in power. These terms, and the actions of the left seem at odds with their self glorified notions that they stand for an equal, fairer society, when it very often appears they want nothing of the sort.

[Howjy04]

Is Germany in a woeful state in the EU? Perhaps the EU isn't the problem in Italy?

 

Or the ever closer union only works for some?

[Paul6754]

All this dancing around the maypole. The bottom line is the UK has prospered being a member of the EU, why the heck put all the progress in jeopardy, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

The UK would be even better off in the EU if the UK government would stick up for the UK, just like Italy, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia etc.

[Thevalefan]

Apologies if I confused your original post, but it came across as though the conservatives should have been planning for Brexit at the time of the GE in 2015. A referendum was in their manifesto, which a lot of conservatives campaigned against. I don't think Brexit was inevitable at all. I remember waking up on the Friday morning shocked at the outcome, as I think were many others.

 

Again, apologies for the confusion on the next point, but I read it as follows; "unless you think we made a good approach to Brexit and think we've done a good job so far? (wouldn't surprise me haha).

How can you possibly fathom that one?" It wasn't clear what it was that you were asking that he'd fathomed.

 

You refer to the decision to go to war in Iraq as "not democratic", but there was never a referendum on it. Yes over a million marched, but you can't gauge from that that "everyone" was against it, therefore use it as an example of an undemocratic action. An elected government went ahead with it.

 

Your point about "gammoners" being "right wing daily mail readers, white middle-older aged males" I find staggering. Anything right of Corbyn has become far right. The term far right, along with racist, bigot,or nazi, has been used so intensively and indiscriminately that they've lost their true meaning. For me it demonstrates a worrying trend being adopted by the left, whereby any opinions other than their own, are no longer debated like adults, but shut down as right wing, or fueling hate, the irony being that it's them that have shown horrendous levels of hatred over the last 2 years particularly, and further back for as long as the conservatives have been in power. These terms, and the actions of the left seem at odds with their self glorified notions that they stand for an equal, fairer society, when it very often appears they want nothing of the sort.

 

No worries.

 

In 2015 though, you'd start your planning on it if you've promised it? Forget the conservatives wanting to remain, if it's in your manifesto - make a plan for it. A point I love making here is that the Tory's manifesto nearly a decade ago said they would cap net migration to the 10's of thousands. Never did and they never planned to do it. All contributing factors to where we are now. People will have voted for them based on that but they didn't do it, in fact the opposite happens. These are the kind of things that makes me question democracy.

 

That same Friday I remember speaking to 3 people who said they voted leave as a 'protest' vote (if you like) and regret it actually happened. They voted Leave thinking it would never win, just to go against what they saw as the status quo - no real reasoning behind their decisions. Leavers and Remainers were all surprised, no one expected it. Inevitable in the sense if they won a GE, a referendum would happen.

 

Apologies on my behalf for the misunderstanding, I'm a bit useless typing from my phone.

 

No, there wasn't a referendum but if there had been then I'm sure you'd agree with me we wouldn't have joined the US on that venture. It was a point of national massive interest. Also no promises of "War on Iraq" in their manifesto pledge. People opposed something in their masses but the Govt carried on anyway and ignored those calls. I'm just pulling examples off the top of my head to highlight how things are not as democratic as we believe they are. Albeit, compared with a lot of countries across the world we are a cut above.

 

You asked for what it means and I gave you my interpretation of it. A 2 second google search will help you understand it better than me. Gammon is a term that represents a stereotype.

 

I totally agree with you actually in the sense that certain words are losing their meaning in the political environments. You have to question your last sentence there, what Brexit voters all perceive as "Lefties" are actually the ones (especially on here) who are engaged in adult debate that extends further than "Out means out" "Close the borders" "Blue passports" "Our money" "we won, you lost, get over it" etc. As well as the leftists being freeloaders who want everything on a plate and love benefits.

 

I'm about as far away from the left you can get besides I believe in being a member of the EU a good thing for the country and I believe in we should all have solid human rights. Does that make me a left-winger though? Because I support our EU membership? No - course not. However, I've been in situations with right-wingers that have accused me of facilitating the Islamification of Europe by voting to stay in the EU. That's right wing rhetoric.

 

I'm not trying to shut down any arguments in fact I'm trying to get more reasoning behind the points they make. Points that coincidently often fall in the views of right wing politics.

 

One thing in life I have found, stereotypes generally bear some relevance or they would never be the opinion to begin with. Of course, they cannot be applied to everyone but there is some degree of truth in them (In my opinion).

[Fosse69]

All this dancing around the maypole. The bottom line is the UK has prospered being a member of the EU, why the heck put all the progress in jeopardy, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

The UK would be even better off in the EU if the UK government would stick up for the UK, just like Italy, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia etc.

We didn't do too badly, we had rebates, our own currency and our own borders.