Ukip

[kevin_struggles]

so you think the people in work who are clearly sick of picking up the tab for lazy good fro nothings who are capable of working but choose not to and immigrants who don't have a job? Well I would hazard a guess that you are wrong, hence the rise of UKIP.

 

100% employment isn't possible for many reasons but I notice you have no answer to the clear truth that only wealthy people and big business can generate jobs.

 

You just trot out the tired old jealous diatribe aimed at anyone who has earned themselves a decent life. How about putting some effort into getting everyone up to that level instead of chasing the wealth creators out, what are you going to have in their place more poor people, yes that should work

 

Sorry I meant to say:

so you think the people in work who are clearly sick of picking up the tab for lazy good fro nothings who are capable of working but choose not to and immigrants who don't have a job will vote for Labour? Well I would hazard a guess that you are wrong, hence the rise of UKIP

[kevin_struggles]

If you agree that we can't have 100% unemployment, and that businesses don't want 100% employment, then we need unemployment benefit surely? I'd argue that any party funded by big business would feel the same way about 100 % unemployment too.

You also seek to think those that want a fairer society, where the gap between the rich and poor isn't growing so rapidly, are lazy, whinge and do a poor job (I note you said 'working' and I'd hazard a guess it's attitude like that that make working people think they would be better off voting elsewhere).

In the early 80's The top CEOs got paid about 40 times the average workers pay. They now get over 500 times that.

You can now add the top 80 or so richest people's wealth together and they would own more than the poorest 3 billion. These choices and lower taxes don't seem to be doing it for them, perhaps they are all lazy.

I'm not saying I want everyone to be equal. I'm saying things could just be fairer. I can't see how free markets, low taxes, and scrapping the NHS will make things fairer.

 

 

I think JA has already made the point that there are two ways of closing the gap. One is to bring everyone down to nearer the bottom and the other is to help those at the bottom to get closer to the top. Labour polices will result in the former.

 

The only way to achieve the latter is to work for it not wait around for a handout from those who did work for it.

[carl]

 

If you were hoping the stats would prove that UKIP are wrong to say we don't want any immigrants here then I'm afraid you are on the wrong thread because that's BNP you are talking about not UKIP.

 

I've been trying to explain the same for about 20 pages....good luck.

[carl]

 

I prefer common sense which is probably why you don't agree with me ;)

 

It's not just him...many so called graduates like him have no common sense. In fact, if you look at Government, many of those in the cabinet have no common sense...just what they picked up at Eton (hurrrah:lecture:)

[Andyregs]

so you think the people in work who are clearly sick of picking up the tab for lazy good fro nothings who are capable of working but choose not to and immigrants who don't have a job? Well I would hazard a guess that you are wrong, hence the rise of UKIP.

 

100% employment isn't possible for many reasons but I notice you have no answer to the clear truth that only wealthy people and big business can generate jobs.

 

You just trot out the tired old jealous diatribe aimed at anyone who has earned themselves a decent life. How about putting some effort into getting everyone up to that level instead of chasing the wealth creators out, what are you going to have in their place more poor people, yes that should work

 

I think you are starting to make things up to argue against now.

I've for no idea what you mean by your first paragraph or who you are arguing against , but it bares no resemblance to anything I said. The post is one long straw man argument.

And of course only business and government can create jobs, what did you expect I was thinking? That my pet dog could create jobs? All I said was that it didn't give a right to take advantage of people and that things should be fairer. They create jobs because employing those people will make them profits.

You also trot out the tired preconception that anyone who says things should be fairer are jealous and lazy. I'm neither. I work hard and I'm happy with my lot. I'm not suggesting that I should get paid more. In fact I don't mind paying a little extra into the pot if it means more money for public services such as the NHS. It's a lazy argument and presume everyone argues from a selfish perspective. Speak for yourself on that one.

Your last sentence is just another straw man argument.

[Andyregs]

Sorry I meant to say:

so you think the people in work who are clearly sick of picking up the tab for lazy good fro nothings who are capable of working but choose not to and immigrants who don't have a job will vote for Labour? Well I would hazard a guess that you are wrong, hence the rise of UKIP

 

Makes a bit more sense. But not I don't think that. Ukip is more likely to pick up Tory voters than labour too.

[Andyregs]

It's not just him...many so called graduates like him have no common sense. In fact, if you look at Government, many of those in the cabinet have no common sense...just what they picked up at Eton (hurrrah:lecture:)

 

You come over so confused carlll. You know you keep agreeing with someone who has extremely right wing views. Yet you claim to dislike the Tories.

Your disdain for anyone who has got an education is becoming laughable. Especially when you read some of your posts. So you are now anti immigration, and gay, anti education, anti posh people, anti poor people, anti Tory, anti labour, anti lib dem, anti environment. Your chip just keeps growing.

Like I said previously, do you know what that's a characteristic of (along with nationalism, a focus on crime and disorder, scapegoating, etc)?

[Andyregs]

 

Perhaps I am putting words in his mouth

 

Perhaps

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

You come over so confused carlll. You know you keep agreeing with someone who has extremely right wing views. Yet you claim to dislike the Tories.

Your disdain for anyone who has got an education is becoming laughable. Especially when you read some of your posts. So you are now anti immigration, and gay, anti education, anti posh people, anti poor people, anti Tory, anti labour, anti lib dem, anti environment. Your chip just keeps growing.

Like I said previously, do you know what that's a characteristic of (along with nationalism, a focus on crime and disorder, scapegoating, etc)?

 

Can I guess? :D

[JOHNNYAITCH]

In which case the figure he quoted needs to be adjusted to only include the amount actually being paid out to those who haven't paid in, but that wouldn't have the effect he was after would it.

 

No idea as to 'the effect he was after'

 

Perhaps I am putting words in his mouth but to me he was clearly making the comparison deliberately to show that pensioners receive more benefits than the unemployed and to show pensioners in the same light. I disagree and will continue to do so.

 

I don't know..I didn't interpret it like that..simply that a major cost to the state in terms of 'state paid income' is pensions is what I read into it.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

It's not posh people it's anyone with advantages he doesn't have (perceived or real)...most of us aspire to get to where such people are rather than dragging them down.

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

It's not posh people it's anyone with advantages he doesn't have (perceived or real)...most of us aspire to get to where such people are rather than dragging them down.

 

Don't you find that this type of attitude is ever more prevalent in UK society nowadays?

 

People expect something for nothing and rather than work towards their own goals are bitter to those that have achieved?

 

Maybe it's the influence of massive wages in sport and reality stardom and the money that comes with it, maybe it's watching foreign nationals come to our great land to aspire to a better life and enjoy theirs more, maybe it's much more than that but something is creating an ever growing attitude of jealousy towards others and what they have.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Don't you find that this type of attitude is ever more prevalent in UK society nowadays?

 

Seems to be. The majority are still hard working individuals trying to do the best for themselves and thei families and respecting the achievements of others but I feel there are more who don't feel that way than there used to be

 

People expect something for nothing and rather than work towards their own goals are bitter to those that have achieved?

 

Society (as in other people) will look after them ;)

 

There will always be people with advantages..most of us in the UK have massive advantages/privileges compared to most of the world (state education, state health services etc)

 

Maybe it's the influence of massive wages in sport and reality stardom and the money that comes with it,

 

Said it before that it would be good to have some documentaries/books etc showing just how hard it is to get to the top most of the time. It's incredibly hard to become a professional footballer and in the general world of entertainment most have put in years of hard slog to get anywhere, training, practicing and 'doing the clubs'. Even in business the majority start out small and slog their way to where they have got to

 

maybe it's watching foreign nationals come to our great land to aspire to a better life and enjoy theirs more, maybe it's much more than that but something is creating an ever growing attitude of jealousy towards others and what they have.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head..jealousy instead of saying "good on you, I'm going to try to do that"

 

Social mobility has become more difficult over the past 30 years or so but that means you have to work harder and sacrifice more to get to where you want to be.

 

That of course does not mean we don't look after those who cannot look after themselves..that help and safety net provided by the tax payer is something we should be proud of and cherish

[kevin_struggles]

Makes a bit more sense. But not I don't think that. Ukip is more likely to pick up Tory voters than labour too.

 

Thats true I'm just voicing my confusion about why labour voters cant understand that labour no longer represent workers and havent done for a long time.

 

If you agree that only big business and wealth can create jobs why do you support taxing them until the pips squeak, which will lead to them leaving and setting up elsewhere, which is exactly what happend last time labour tried it, and who suffers, yes once again the workers.

 

The thing is Andy it isnt the gap thats important its the standard of living thats important. You can close the gap by making rich people poorer but that doesnt make the poorer people rich so its just a false perspective. The reason is that historically the wealth never actually gets re-disitributed it just gets lost in the NHS and benefits pit because thats where Labour spend all the money. So if it would make you feel better because there were a smaller gap because the rich were a bit less rich then I can only think that the motive is jealousy because it wouldnt benefit you in any other way. I wouldnt mind paying money in to help those worse off than me if it was spent wsiely and used to encourage them to climb out of the pit and support them while they are doing so. Unfortunately Labour policies dont encourage them to do better it encourages them to stay as they are and I dont want to pay for that.

 

You keep picking up on the lazy workers theme when it was simply part of a point I was making.

 

I dont think all workers are lazy but in my experience, which is a fair amount, it is the lazy workers who make the most noise about taxing those who are better off because they want the money given to them. By definition that is lazy in my mind. I think those who are able should earn what they have not be given money someone else has earned. The best way to get more money is to work hard for it.

 

In the 70's, which is what I was talking about earlier, workers in britain were famous throughout the world for being lazy and producing expensive poorly made products. That came about because of strong unions forcing companies to pay more than they could afford and stopping them from recruiting better people by protecting those already in the job no matter how useless and lazy they were. It was done by having a "closed shop" which effectively meant you could only give a job to those approved by the union, although it was supposed to protect skilled men from being ousted by unskilled ones who would work for less money. Good idea on the surface but like all these things it was heavily abused. That is why we no longer have shipyards, pits, steelworks etc because by the 1980s you could buy better and cheaper abroad even when taking the shipping costs into consideration.

 

I dont want to go back to those times I have lived through them once. At the time I was a traditional labour voter, my father was a labour counsillor. It was clear to me where the blame lay and it was already clear to me where it was all heading before we got there.

 

Labour still manage to pull the wool over peoples eyes but over the eyars I have watched and seen them do nothing to benefit people who actually work hard and try to get on in life. Their policies only seem to benefit people who want something for nothing.

 

If labour get in I predict that it wont be the rich who end up worse off, they have enough money to go elsewhere and continue to make their fortune. It will be the middle earners who suffer and they are the ones who worked for their money, the other group who will suffer are those who are genuinely seeking work because whenever labour have been in government for any length of time they always leave the country with no money and high unemployment.

[kevin_struggles]

Don't you find that this type of attitude is ever more prevalent in UK society nowadays?

 

People expect something for nothing and rather than work towards their own goals are bitter to those that have achieved?

 

Maybe it's the influence of massive wages in sport and reality stardom and the money that comes with it, maybe it's watching foreign nationals come to our great land to aspire to a better life and enjoy theirs more, maybe it's much more than that but something is creating an ever growing attitude of jealousy towards others and what they have.

 

Wow REM, I cant believe I'm doing this but i agree with you