Bonfire night

[JOHNNYAITCH]

mr.h you make the assumption that they have two brain cells between them and they aren't just selfish idiots having 'a bit of fun'

[davidatpreston]

Small minority causing trouble..a few 100 (if that) out of tens of 1000s who were out celebrating..the overwhelming majority can clearly be civilized about this. Allow the authorities to ban "events" cos of this and it will be the thin end of the wedge...demos banned cos of the actions of a small minority for example. Catch and punish those that did the deeds..don't punish those that did nothing wrong

 

There is no intention of punishing anyone, there are plenty of organised displays that should satisfy those that wish to see bonfires and fireworks.

 

There are a lot of parents with scarred children, a few that have actually lost their children or pets because of fireworks or bonfires. Fireworks are just not suitable to be sold to individuals

 

Now that we have the added risk of firemen and others being forced to risk their lives without good reason, I don't think it is too much to ask the decent majority to go to a proper safe display. Most of them have children and pets too, and if they stop to think about it, there really is no need for these unnecessary risks.

 

Finally, the police do nothing when fireworks are used badly, sometimes even wickedly to attack dogs and cats or other animals, I know for a fact they say they don't have the resources to investigate this, and could not cope with what went on in parts of the north west on Bonfire night with large gangs using the occasion to attack firemen and others.

 

There were also reports of fireworks being thrown at or put through the letter boxes of elderly and vulnerable people, and they have been used in racial / hate crimes too.

[davidatpreston]

I'd disagree, that's punishing the masses for the acts of criminal cowards. The criminal justice system simply needs to be given much, much stronger powers to deal with these scumbags such as hard labour, and no taps on the wrist or Cody cell with Sky at worst case!

 

In effect what you are suggesting is far more extreme than banning Port Vale from ever playing football again because of the trouble some idiots continually want to cause intermittently.

 

No, it just isn't - I don't know it that is an attempt to start a slanging match but I'm not biting at such a ludicrous analogy. It really isn't the same at all, as there would still be organised bonfires and firework displays and the comparison doesn't hold water and is ill-conceived. Do you really believe that ?

 

Football is already played in a controlled environment where events are organised with times long in advance - just ask Smurf about his police costs - so your remark is way over the top, and I am surprised you can see any possible similarity between that and having bonfires and fireworks anywhere and everywhere.

[Howjy04]

I know I'm kind of answering my own question but why do these twunts target the fire brigade? I can kind of understand why they might chuck stones or whatever at police cars but fire engines just seems bizarre.

 

You kind of understand why they might chuck stones at police cars?:banghead:

[mr.hobblesworth]

I can understand why they might make that decision, yes. Doesn't mean I agree with it though.

[Howjy04]

Why would you want to throw stones at police cars unless you are a cube?And be understood why you've done it ?

[mr.hobblesworth]

I can understand why people smoke crack, commit murders and vote conservative. It doesn't mean I think they're right to do so. I imagine they assault the police or throw stones at their cars because they have a grudge against them for whatever reason. I just wondered why someone would have a grudge against the fire brigade. Wish I'd not bothered now.

 

By the way, what's with this new 'cube' insult? Is it from one of these rappers that they have nowadays?

[davidatpreston]

I can understand why people smoke crack, commit murders and vote conservative.

 

Goodness, it hardly seems fair to group conservative voters with crack smokers and murderers.

 

Some crack smokers are nice people underneath, and some murderers repent their crimes.:)

[Howjy04]

Why do you understand why people smoke crack,commit murders and vote Labour?Is it because they are the dregs of society?

[mr.hobblesworth]

Ha ha!

[davidatpreston]

 

By the way, what's with this new 'cube' insult? Is it from one of these rappers that they have nowadays?

 

It seems 'cube' is not so new-

 

 

About Beat Slang in the 1950s

 

State of Coolness

 

But how serious is this chick? Does she really have to be home early to “Big Daddy,” or is she just “copping a bit”?

 

In this usage, Big Daddy may indeed be the potential date’s father. But more likely, it’s an older person who isn’t hep to the Beat scene (and wants to put a damper on Beatnik fun.)

 

The date herself may very well be a closet square; that’s why she’s “copping a bit” (making up an act to delude the Beatnik.)

 

Squares are an abundant source for Beatniks of “the big tickle” (a laugh at the expense of the victim.) But hey, it’s not like they were cool to begin with! No big loss in Beat society.

 

Such a person is known as a “square” or "cube" in Beat slang in the 1950s.

Read more at http://grammar.yourdictionary.com/slang/beat-slang-1950s.html#ZJ47Hj9u2585mxrR.99

 

[JOHNNYAITCH]

There is no intention of punishing anyone, there are plenty of organised displays that should satisfy those that wish to see bonfires and fireworks.

 

Change the law for people who have done nothing wrong to stop them from doing something and you are punishing them for something they have not done

 

There are a lot of parents with scarred children, a few that have actually lost their children or pets because of fireworks or bonfires. Fireworks are just not suitable to be sold to individuals

 

The overwhelming majority use them safely.what next ban cars cos some use them recklessly?

 

Now that we have the added risk of firemen and others being forced to risk their lives without good reason, I don't think it is too much to ask the decent majority to go to a proper safe display. Most of them have children and pets too, and if they stop to think about it, there really is no need for these unnecessary risks.

 

Presumably you'll want to ban anti-austerity protests as there is a risk to the police and firemen from a minority of irresponsible protesters who won't behave in a civilized manner? Those policeman have children and pets. The can stick to organized marches where how they protest s strictly controlled according to how the authorities say it should be

 

Finally, the police do nothing when fireworks are used badly, sometimes even wickedly to attack dogs and cats or other animals, I know for a fact they say they don't have the resources to investigate this, and could not cope with what went on in parts of the north west on Bonfire night with large gangs using the occasion to attack firemen and others.

 

Large gangs?

 

In the latest 'anti-austerity' protest London sticks and other missiles were used as well as fireworks to attack horses..condemn and punish the people that do this and go for them not those that don't abuse them

 

 

 

There were also reports of fireworks being thrown at or put through the letter boxes of elderly and vulnerable people, and they have been used in racial / hate crimes too.

 

 

Every one disgusting but no reason to ban fireworks.....might as well put huge controls or bans on knives or maybe the internet as some people abuse that too...let the state tell us what we are civilised enough to handle

[JOHNNYAITCH]

having bonfires and fireworks anywhere and everywhere.

 

Cos that's what happens on bonfire night isn't it ..the whole UK up in flames.how do we ever get thru it

 

A totally disproportionate response to what actually happens

[davidatpreston]

Cos that's what happens on bonfire night isn't it ..the whole UK up in flames.how do we ever get thru it

 

A totally disproportionate response to what actually happens

 

 

Only disproportionate in your opinion, and a pity you rather ruined a well-composed previous post with this slightly less credible follow-up.

 

No the whole UK doesn't go up in flames, but that is little consolation to those that do have accidents or suffer criminal activity or abuse due to this night.

 

Your argument is a little like saying someone arguing to legalise guns with no limits then mocking when someone protests and saying 'Cos the whole UK gets shot up, doesn't it' or having no speed limits on roads and someone protests then you say 'Oh everyone on the road in the UK has an accident don't they'.

 

If you want to disagree, so be it, but don't distort what I am saying - make your own argument.

 

Previous post -

 

1.Your point about punishment or restrictions on or of non-offenders applies to many laws and rules, for instance an obvious one is people travelling to football away matches often have alcohol restrictions, not being able to take toiletries on planes, closure of roads for royal/VIP visits, or even sports events, thousands of other examples, (as you know). This one is more common sense and really causes no problems to sensible people who just want to see fireworks and bonfires and will still be able to do so in a proper environment.

 

2. Again you bring in an analogy that is not sensible or relevant, cars already have restrictions on speed, emissions, who can drive them, where they can be driven , tyre safety and a hundred other things - so applying a restriction to bonfires and fireworks that they can only be enjoyed at organised displays is actually mirroring the situation. Yet you say I want to ban them - I don't, I just want them controlled properly.

 

3 / 4. Protests and marches have to be agreed in advance in most cases, big business for the police overtime when the EDL and their mates march in places like Rochdale and Rotherham every few weeks. I wouldn't ban this either,m as fre speech is more important than a few silly pyrotechnics for entertainment, but again your analogy is misplaced. I'd add that if fireworks were not sold except for displays it would be more difficult for those who misuse them at protests to obtain them.

Police and firemen and others that protect the public choose to do so knowing there is a risk from certain situations, but this risk should not be increased by frivolous but dangerous entertainments.

I'm not siure why you felt the need to say 'policemen have children and pets too' - that was not the point, it was the children and pets that are at risk, whoever and whatever their parents and owners may be.

Nor do I see the need to divert this argument to anti-austerity marches - that has nothing to do with what I am writing, and yes, some of the gangs that attacked firemen were dozens strong, not what Id want to face if I was trying to help the people living there.

 

5. If you agree that those things are disgusting, how can you be against a way to stop them ? Another tenuous analogy to compare the internet, where name calling may offend but is hardly the same as real physical damage from fire, possibly violence, burns and so on. Surely you can see there is a degree of difference here that may not suit your argument, but comparing internet misuse with risking fire death ?

 

I can see your argument comes from a loathing of state control, and in a perfect world where people behaved responsibly there would be no need for controls on many things, but the world is fare from perfect, there are stupid, misguided, ill-informed and some plain evil people who do things that threaten the innocent and vulnerable, and it is not 'nanny state' to want to improve things by making it more difficult for that to happen.

 

It will never be stopped totally, but - just as the smoking ban in many places and high tobacco taxes gradually improve health - will make life better.

 

I have now made my points, make more if you want, any more time I spend on the subject will be used to avctually try and get a change and convince like-minded people to campaign for it. Thanks for the debate.

I do reserve the right to reply if (when?) you misrepresent what I have said, otherwise the debating of the subject is really over for another 11 months, at least for me.

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

No, it just isn't - I don't know it that is an attempt to start a slanging match but I'm not biting at such a ludicrous analogy. It really isn't the same at all, as there would still be organised bonfires and firework displays and the comparison doesn't hold water and is ill-conceived. Do you really believe that ?

 

Football is already played in a controlled environment where events are organised with times long in advance - just ask Smurf about his police costs - so your remark is way over the top, and I am surprised you can see any possible similarity between that and having bonfires and fireworks anywhere and everywhere.

 

No it's a reasonable debate so no need to bring words like slanging match into it as you had been quite reasonable recently.

 

The analogy stands up as far more violence occurs at organised football matches than private bonfires, all you need to do is analyse both aspects nationwide.