(OVF) Should Vale Park have been completed last century?

[Guest OVF Feature]

Yes, hindsight is a fine thing, but Rob Fielding argues that an alternative design for the Lorne Street stand would...

 

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[smithie]

The Lorne Street stand is probably the best-known folly among lower-league football fans.

 

There was no point in building it, and now it seems there's no point in finishing it off.

 

The atmosphere in that area is non-existent due to it being full of middle-aged moaners, and the upstairs areas are strangely devoid of any sense of belonging. It is the magnolia wall-paint of modern football.

 

I used to stand on the Lorne Street terracee and it had a weathered charm that sadly was swept away in the name of progress.

 

Another feature that stands out to me (or rather, doesn't) is the signage for advertising local companies.

 

The lettering on most of them is so small that they are virtually unreadable from the Railway Stand - the very area they face most prominently.

 

All in all it's a pig's ear, no doubt.

[robf]

There was no point in building it, and now it seems there's no point in finishing it off.

 

I would differ on that point. I think there was a point in building something there. The club definitely needed executive boxes, new corporate facilities, dressing rooms, club offices and the like. But as I argue in the piece, I think the design that the club went with in 1998 was massively over-ambitious in terms of size and cost.

 

p.s. I used to stand on the Lorne St terraces too.

[bookworm]

I would differ on that point. I think there was a point in building something there. The club definitely needed executive boxes, new corporate facilities, dressing rooms, club offices and the like. But as I argue in the piece, I think the design that the club went with in 1998 was massively over-ambitious in terms of size and cost.

 

p.s. I used to stand on the Lorne St terraces too.

 

we are known as the ground with the unfinished stand but better that than some grounds who haven't even started modernising.

[Jacko51]

The need to rebuild the Lorne Street was obvious. The plans were drawn up at the end of a season when Vale had almost made the Championship play-offs. The design is, however, sheer lunacy. The Wycombe stand gives priority to the ordinary viewing customer. The upper tier of that stand provides a far better view than anything the ordinary fan can get at Vale Park. As far as I'm concerned, the Lorne Street has always been Mr Bell's folly. And there are some very interesting stories surrounding the funding of the project.

[robf]

The need to rebuild the Lorne Street was obvious. The plans were drawn up at the end of a season when Vale had almost made the Championship play-offs. The design is, however, sheer lunacy. The Wycombe stand gives priority to the ordinary viewing customer. The upper tier of that stand provides a far better view than anything the ordinary fan can get at Vale Park. As far as I'm concerned, the Lorne Street has always been Mr Bell's folly. And there are some very interesting stories surrounding the funding of the project.

 

I agree. The slope of all the Vale stands is very shallow due to the idea of bolting seats onto the existing terracing.

 

The Railway is now the oldest stand in the ground and would be next on the list but... I wonder what we may have done if we'd built two stands similar to Wycombe at Vale Park? One on the Lorne St and another on the Railway.

 

The views would have been superb, we would have had 48 exec boxes (24 in each stand) bringing in income, plus we'd have double the conference facilities (i.e. two restaurants/lounges to rent out) and it could all have conceivably been done in a couple of summers for the £3m cost of the Lorne St...

[Bea Smith]

Yes, hindsight is a fine thing, but Rob Fielding argues that an alternative design for the Lorne Street stand would...

 

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It really is a good thing that this is discussed. Never was a truer word spoken than that history was rewritten to brighten Bell's image. From alleged biscuit tin scams and alleged gate receipt inaccuracies to legal disputes with the club over the club shop, and costing the club a fortune by sacking John Rudge, and that's before the Lorne Street disaster has even been mentioned.

 

Lorne Street is the laughing stock of the league, half-finished for a generation and an out of place stand that is now regarded as an unfinished eyesore that should never have been built. Even a stand a third of the size, maybe smaller than the Wycombe one would have been better, 16-20 boxes and a steep view closer to the pitch like at Rotherham's new ground, would have been perfect. One of the reasons Vale home games are so poor is the lack of atmosphere because that stand was built so far from the pitch.

 

I have no idea about the funding, but nothing would surprise me and if someone closer to the shambles things there are interesting goings-on it would fit entirely.

 

Bell was just so lucky to ride on the back of John Rudge who made him millions and he only gave back less than half of it to buy replacements, then got rid of him for Horton, the first of the 'was a great Vale player, must be a good Vale manager - oops, maybe not brigade.

[onestepatatime]

The Lorne Street stand is probably the best

 

I also used to stand on the Lorne Street side in all weathers after I had originally started my life as a Vale fan by getting behind the Hamil road goal, due mainly to it being easy to get there after walking from my bus in Burslem. I have fond memories of many occasions in good and bad weather of Vale's games being watched in Hamil and Lorne Street. I eventually graduated to a season ticket in Railway stand, in the upper tier and again have absolute terrific memories of games watched from there. The atmosphere used to be electric at the bigger games as I recall hundreds of away fans also getting into Railway Stand. The view admittedly of the pitch was and still is fabulous from there. However due to the appalling facilities there I subsequently tried the Lorne street new stand and was pleasantly surprised at the view and facilities. I am resident there now as I feel comfortable there and can use reasonable facilities if required.

 

I take umbrage with you smithie at your reference to "middle-aged moaners" causing there to be no atmosphere in Lorne Street but mate you are so wrong. There are many passionate, vocal fans who are regulars in that area and the view is quite good and frankly I now find it very easy to leave the ground at final whistle in comfort, without the need to be subjected to the hassle and agro that exists sometimes when leaving Railway and going down Hamil Road.

 

Yes, we are all different but don't abuse us Valiants that choose to sit elsewhere from your desired section!

 

Back to the point of this thread- It is obvious that the second section of Lorne Street needs to be completed but finances dictate and Norman will have enough other distractions to take his money away from him, for now. Cosmetically Lorne Street(Hamil side) is awful and does give away fans a hoot at the sight of a half finished project. In an ideal world it would be completed sooner rather than later and then it would allow more options for fans to choose as to where they want to spend their money. If ever finished it will actually look quite reasonable and most certainly a damn sight better looking part of the ground than the antiquated, old fashioned, poor facilitated Railway section!

 

My memory suggest that once the Garden Festival site was used and left after the completion of the Garden Celebrations on the old Shelton Iron and Steel land then a massive opportunity was lost by Vale and perhaps Stoke City to utilise that area as one large stadium complex that could have been shared by the FA for Semi Finals and other such occasions. Had there been more foresight then by Vale and/or Stoke City there may have been a big, modern style stadium produced that could have given us all a sense of pride for the Potteries area as a whole. If Vale could have financed and seen fit to have their ground on that land then it would have answered many questions over parking, facilities etc, etc. However ce la vie! we are now having to make the most of an old, poor stadium to cheer our favourites on!

 

Sheds loads of dosh are needed to bring Vale Park up to anything like the 21st century and my feeling is that we will have to endure what we now have for many, many years to come.

 

There have been numerous debates and posts on here in the past asking/explaining/querying what can be done at Vale to "improve" fans facilities and perceptions of the Ground. No one yet has come up with a definitive plan and costing as to what possibly could be achieved by either staying where we are or indeed selling up and moving to a new Stadium. The arguments/discussions will go and on with us Vale fans so we now have to await what Norman sees as his vision for the future, ground wise. In the meantime don't let us fall out and describe each other's favoured vantage points at Vale in derogatory ways,eh?

[robf]

My memory suggest that once the Garden Festival site was used and left after the completion of the Garden Celebrations on the old Shelton Iron and Steel land then a massive opportunity was lost by Vale and perhaps Stoke City to utilise that area as one large stadium complex that could have been shared by the FA for Semi Finals and other such occasions. Had there been more foresight then by Vale and/or Stoke City there may have been a big, modern style stadium produced that could have given us all a sense of pride for the Potteries area as a whole. If Vale could have financed and seen fit to have their ground on that land then it would have answered many questions over parking, facilities etc, etc. However ce la vie! we are now having to make the most of an old, poor stadium to cheer our favourites on!

 

There was - it was planned to be on the garden festival land in Hanley - and it was summarily dismissed by Mr Bell as it would have been run by the council (so Vale would have lost their ground). Having a ground built by the council didn't do Stoke any harm though!

 

I personally always thought (and still do even if my thoughts may be regarded as heresy) that a new stadium could suit the Vale. I always think the location, hemmed in by a park and narrow terraced streets (and with all the mineshafts etc) doesn't do us any favours although I do totally understand that some are very attached to the stadium and I respect it's a very emotive thing to discuss moving.

 

However, with so many derelict spaces in Stoke, surely there would be somewhere within the Burslem area where a new, modern stadium could be located.

 

After all, back in 1950 Vale Park was a "new" ground in a different location so it's not like the club history is irretrievably linked with Hamil Road.

[bogie12secs]

There was - it was planned to be on the garden festival land in Hanley - and it was summarily dismissed by Mr Bell as it would have been run by the council (so Vale would have lost their ground). Having a ground built by the council didn't do Stoke any harm though!

 

I personally always thought (and still do even if my thoughts may be regarded as heresy) that a new stadium could suit the Vale. I always think the location, hemmed in by a park and narrow terraced streets (and with all the mineshafts etc) doesn't do us any favours although I do totally understand that some are very attached to the stadium and I respect it's a very emotive thing to discuss moving.

 

However, with so many derelict spaces in Stoke, surely there would be somewhere within the Burslem area where a new, modern stadium could be located.

 

After all, back in 1950 Vale Park was a "new" ground in a different location so it's not like the club history is irretrievably linked with Hamil Road.

Could the 7th be Lucky ?:D

[Smugsy]

There was - it was planned to be on the garden festival land in Hanley - and it was summarily dismissed by Mr Bell as it would have been run by the council (so Vale would have lost their ground). Having a ground built by the council didn't do Stoke any harm though!

 

I personally always thought (and still do even if my thoughts may be regarded as heresy) that a new stadium could suit the Vale. I always think the location, hemmed in by a park and narrow terraced streets (and with all the mineshafts etc) doesn't do us any favours although I do totally understand that some are very attached to the stadium and I respect it's a very emotive thing to discuss moving.

 

However, with so many derelict spaces in Stoke, surely there would be somewhere within the Burslem area where a new, modern stadium could be located.

 

After all, back in 1950 Vale Park was a "new" ground in a different location so it's not like the club history is irretrievably linked with Hamil Road.

 

I've been going to Vale Park for 25 years but would have no problem uprooting to a new ground because the place is so antiquated now. In hindsight missing out on the Festival Park site might have been a good thing as we'd have ended up with a "modern" ground like the awful Bescot Stadium. Now designs have improved and we'd end up with a much better stadium. The ideal spot for me would be somewhere the other side of the 500 opposite the Wolstanton Retail Park. Good access, not too far from the mother town and an area I believe where money is available for development.

[smithie]

Mr OneStep,

 

I'm middle-aged myself but left the Lorne St as it seemed so quiet - to the point where if I or anyone else wanted to sing or chant it would get odd looks (that could be me getting the odd looks, of course!).

 

It's a comfortable part of the ground and is the warmest as it basks in the sun, bit I just decided I wanted a bit more noise and atmosphere so I decamped to the Paddock.

 

I take your point about avoiding the goons on the Hamil Rd after the game.

 

Looking back, we would have been better off keeping some terrace there and having a roof over there.

[robf]

I've been going to Vale Park for 25 years but would have no problem uprooting to a new ground because the place is so antiquated now. In hindsight missing out on the Festival Park site might have been a good thing as we'd have ended up with a "modern" ground like the awful Bescot Stadium. Now designs have improved and we'd end up with a much better stadium. The ideal spot for me would be somewhere the other side of the 500 opposite the Wolstanton Retail Park. Good access, not too far from the mother town and an area I believe where money is available for development.

 

I was thinking of that sort of area too. I've not lived in Stoke for ages so my geography isn't fantastic but that seems a good location to my, untrained eyes.

 

I do think grounds out in the middle of nowhere are terrible (and perhaps that's why so many are against them). But as you say, if you can get a more modern design and it has good transport links, it could be a good move. I went to Leicester recently and drove past their ground - it's within walking distance of the city centre and a nice design too.

 

My problem is - most new grounds are constructed because the club sell the old place to supermarkets/housing. Many supermarkets are not building new stores at the moment and housing would be a problem on ground riddled with mineshafts (as would supermarkets for that matter).

 

So, I feel we've missed our chance as I doubt we'd raise enough from any sale of Vale Park to make enough to build a new place. It's such a pity about the festival park site because that would have been council built so there would be no expense. Nowadays, I think it would be too expensive to move.

[onestepatatime]

Mr OneStep,

 

I'm middle-aged myself but left the Lorne St as it seemed so quiet - to the point where if I or anyone else wanted to sing or chant it would get odd looks (that could be me getting the odd looks, of course!).

 

It's a comfortable part of the ground and is the warmest as it basks in the sun, bit I just decided I wanted a bit more noise and atmosphere so I decamped to the Paddock.

 

I take your point about avoiding the goons on the Hamil Rd after the game.

 

Looking back, we would have been better off keeping some terrace there and having a roof over there.

 

 

Thanks for that mate.

 

Yes you probably got odd looks due to your fizzog being unattractive! There are many of us that have a good old sing song and try as best as possible to gee up the really old stagers in Lorne street and admittedly it's nowt like the Railway. I do miss the "atmosphere" sometimes but still, due to my ever increasing years, find that is countered by the better facilities and easy access/exit from Lorne street. I also like my Wrights pies and understand there is a lack of them in the Railway?

 

One advantage in Lorne street is that we are nearer to Norman and it's easy to shout derogatories at him from there! Kidding aside I agree that terracing with a roof above may have been more cost effective for Vale at Lorne street. Has anyone put that forward as a solution to the Hamil side of Lorne street or is H & S against it?

 

You enjoy your Railway experiences. I'll continue in Lorne street but frankly I still far more enjoy the away sorties when I can sit alongside the goons/numpties and others!!!

[onestepatatime]

There was - it was planned to be on the garden festival land in Hanley - and it was summarily dismissed by Mr Bell as it would have been run by the council (so Vale would have lost their ground). Having a ground built by the council didn't do Stoke any harm though!

 

I personally always thought (and still do even if my thoughts may be regarded as heresy) that a new stadium could suit the Vale. I always think the location, hemmed in by a park and narrow terraced streets (and with all the mineshafts etc) doesn't do us any favours although I do totally understand that some are very attached to the stadium and I respect it's a very emotive thing to discuss moving.

 

However, with so many derelict spaces in Stoke, surely there would be somewhere within the Burslem area where a new, modern stadium could be located.

 

After all, back in 1950 Vale Park was a "new" ground in a different location so it's not like the club history is irretrievably linked with Hamil Road.

 

 

 

Dare I admit, too, that a new stadium would go down well with me?

 

Positioning etc have to be in the best interest of all Valiants and although I agree there are many old stagers who would fight tooth and nail to die in their Vale Park seats, there must be an equal number, if not more who would enjoy a new experience of watching the lads in relative comfort and better facilities. Hmmmm, wonder what Norman has plans for, if any? My gut tell me that the sale of Vale Park would not raise anywhere near enough revenue for it to even get into Norman's thoughts. Fear we may well have to see out our days in Hamil road!