Is Atheism Irrational?

[Andyregs]

Brussels.

 

http://metro.co.uk/2013/01/15/nadia-eweida-wins-religious-discrimination-case-against-british-airways-3352449/

 

Which are our laws as we are part of the European Union. You may not like it or agree with it, but that's different.

[Andyregs]

Can you illustrate how the Ten Commandments have not shaped the moral absolutes of the world?

 

Yes, they included some laws that were practiced prior to Moses, but I would contend that, in the western world at least, laws and the morals behind them have been based on Judeo-Christian principles. Until now.

 

As to how it affects religion, as far as Christianity is concerned Jesus illustrated a number of examples of how we are incapable of keeping God's law and provided the perfect solution.

 

I'm not saying Christianity hasn't shaped our culture because it obviously has. What I'm saying is the idea of what is right and wrong didn't originate from Christianity. They can't claim a monopoly on morality.

There are countless examples of written laws before the bible from Mesopotamia, the Hittite empire (written on two tablets and the first example of the idea of being innocent before proven guilty), Assyrian empire and Roman Empire. They deal with murder, rape and theft amongst other things similar to biblical laws. Many just as bad.

Added to that are countless laws we now hold extremely important to do with crimes that disgust us now, but even in the bible were not even considered immoral. And the laws which were written in the bible which are plainly ignored now and not seen as important (what guides us to choose which laws are still important if not secular morality). There is also questionable morality within the books that give us these laws. Moses leads his people out of slavery by killing thousands, and then we are given guidance on how we should keep slaves (within a little bit of ethnic cleansing).

Christian principles were part of an evolution of morality, taken from previous ideas of morality. It didn't start with Christianity and hasn't or won't end with it as we now know.

Not sure what your last bit is an answer to. Though I always think it's sad how when brought up in religion, it's driven in how incapable, weak and innately bad we are.

[Santa]

thank God for the Polish Catholics.[/url]

Apart from the ones that come over here and take our jobs.

[Tone]

Just to remind you of what you said:

 

I'd disagree with that, though I'm not sure how much of a defence of religion that is? What is true however is that religion is not the basis of morals (and anyway, such laws have been written in stone way before the Ten Commandments). And I'd add that I've never started a war.

 

That was just after you had defined "extreme Christians" as:

 

Everything from being Sexist, homophobic and prejudiced, to going to war.

 

So now to your latest diatribe:

I'm not saying Christianity hasn't shaped our culture because it obviously has. What I'm saying is the idea of what is right and wrong didn't originate from Christianity. They can't claim a monopoly on morality.

There are countless examples of written laws before the bible from Mesopotamia, the Hittite empire (written on two tablets and the first example of the idea of being innocent before proven guilty), Assyrian empire and Roman Empire. They deal with murder, rape and theft amongst other things similar to biblical laws. Many just as bad.

Added to that are countless laws we now hold extremely important to do with crimes that disgust us now, but even in the bible were not even considered immoral. And the laws which were written in the bible which are plainly ignored now and not seen as important (what guides us to choose which laws are still important if not secular morality). There is also questionable morality within the books that give us these laws. Moses leads his people out of slavery by killing thousands, and then we are given guidance on how we should keep slaves (within a little bit of ethnic cleansing).

Christian principles were part of an evolution of morality, taken from previous ideas of morality. It didn't start with Christianity and hasn't or won't end with it as we now know.

Not sure what your last bit is an answer to. Though I always think it's sad how when brought up in religion, it's driven in how incapable, weak and innately bad we are.

 

Answering your last question first, it was an answer to the first remark in the first post above.

 

I am surprised you quote the Hittites, Assyrians and (even though chronologically much later than Moses) the Romans. These civilisations practiced numerous ****** rituals you would be surely appalled about.

 

But then I shouldn't be surprised really.

 

It's a fact, as JohnnyAitch originally wrote, that Judeo-Christian principles shaped our modern laws.

[Andyregs]

Just to remind you of what you said:

 

 

 

That was just after you had defined "extreme Christians" as:

 

 

 

So now to your latest diatribe:

 

 

Answering your last question first, it was an answer to the first remark in the first post above.

 

I am surprised you quote the Hittites, Assyrians and (even though chronologically much later than Moses) the Romans. These civilisations practiced numerous ****** rituals you would be surely appalled about.

 

But then I shouldn't be surprised really.

 

It's a fact, as JohnnyAitch originally wrote, that Judeo-Christian principles shaped our modern laws.

 

I know what I said, for the first part, it just didn't seem to fit with what I said. Perhaps you mistook my point. All I said was you comment was no defence of Christianity.

 

I know they practiced appalling things. I even said so. That was my point. Not that I thought they were better or worse. That Christian morals were morals of the time , and taken from previous ones. Did you read what I put. Your only answer seems to be that they were as bad as ours? The good laws/morals, such as outlawing murder, rape (though the bible is sketchy on this too), and theft were not invented by Christianity. They were the morals of the time which were around had Christianity never come to pass. And they would still have adapted and evolved to outlaw some of the more nasty things allowed in all those previous ancient laws. And added more protection to children and women thankfully.

[For Us All]

Of course. THough he was suggesting we didn't?

 

I hope our laws manage to deal with this in Birmingham?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10790441/Guide-to-school-Islamisation-by-ringleader-of-Trojan-Horse-plot.html

[For Us All]

Apart from the ones that come over here and take our jobs.

 

I was referring more about these.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/migrants-in-britain-a-decade-on-the-poles-who-brought-prosperity-9278710.html

[Andyregs]

I hope our laws manage to deal with this in Birmingham?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10790441/Guide-to-school-Islamisation-by-ringleader-of-Trojan-Horse-plot.html

 

So do I.Id like al religious schools to be outlawed and let young people think for themselves, but at present it isnt unfortunately, which is my point (not that what is happening here is within the laws and is hopefully being looked into and will be dealt with) . Just because im saying something is not against the law, doesnt mean i think its right. You seem to get the two mixed up. Giving schools away to private bodies as academies doesnt help either.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

So do I.Id like al religious schools to be outlawed and let young people think for themselves, but at present it isnt unfortunately,

 

Outrageous..you don't want parents to be able to choose to have their children educated in a religious school (or not)..you want to remove choice and force a secular education on them! Young people to think for themselves?..why force them to go to school at all then? Why force a secualr education on them if you want them to think for themselves? Who are you to decide that they should be taught science and not religion..surely it should be their choice or even (radical I know) their parent's choice?

 

 

What is alegedly happening in Birmingham is a very extreme example of a faith school and to use it as part of an argument against them is ridiculous..but then all religious people are extremists aren't they?..Any more prejudice and intolerance?

[JOHNNYAITCH]

It's a fact, as JohnnyAitch originally wrote, that Judeo-Christian principles shaped our modern laws.

 

Don't drag me into it...oh Ok then

 

The point for me is not that Christianity etc was the first 'religion' to teach morality nor that it didn't include previously defined morals but it is a simple plain fact that the laws and morals that our sociey is based on are those presented by th Bible..it's an inescapable fact. When the basis of our culture, morals and laws was being laid down 100s of years ago the "teachings" of Mesopotamia, the Hittite empire, Assyrian empire and Roman Empire etc were not known so were not any basis. The Bible etc was