Woolwich stabbing/machete attack

[Andyregs]

You are wrong. Many learn and study to arrive at their conclusions..far from cherry picking

 

 

 

I have stated on here many times that it was a work of fiction written by man. Please don't ignore what I have previoulsy posted

 

 

 

No confusion at all

 

I don't doubt that, but people do not simply 'cherry pick', many arrive at their stance/belief after many years of study..the Bible is after all very complex irrespective of being man made. That understanding is bound to be affected by current morality and other factors that change over time plus issues of translation. That isn't cherry picking.

 

Havent ignored anything. I stated you didnt believe in god, and you don't. How is that ignoring anything? And your explanations of how they study and not cherry pick is so flimsy and poor it really isnt worth acknowledging. It ignores the obvious atrocities in favour of a fluffy non answer. For example, how can moses be used as the founder of christian morality with the Ten Commandments, yet ignore the ethnic cleansing he committed as guided by god. Saying you havent studied it enough whilst giving no answer just doesnt cut it. I've read some christian justifications of it, and its flimsy to say the least.

Even if it was so complex, then that doesnt make sense either. Why would god leave a message that could be interpreted to justify rape, ethnic cleansing and misogyny.

[Tone]

Havent ignored anything. I stated you didnt believe in god, and you don't. How is that ignoring anything? And your explanations of how they study and not cherry pick is so flimsy and poor it really isnt worth acknowledging. It ignores the obvious atrocities in favour of a fluffy non answer. For example, how can moses be used as the founder of christian morality with the Ten Commandments, yet ignore the ethnic cleansing he committed as guided by god. Saying you havent studied it enough whilst giving no answer just doesnt cut it. I've read some christian justifications of it, and its flimsy to say the least.

Even if it was so complex, then that doesnt make sense either. Why would god leave a message that could be interpreted to justify rape, ethnic cleansing and misogyny.

 

Moses was not "the founder of Christian morality". He received the Ten Commandments from God himself.

 

Moses was carrying out God's command to kill the Midianites. God judged them just like he will judge every other person who has not accepted Jesus Christ's offer of salvation. "The wages of sin is death".

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Used the mail as well as guardian so there wasnt a bias.

 

Oh dear...I never suggested bias, just that you have slagged off the mail in the past and yet seem prepared to use it when it seems to suit you; a double standard at best and downright hypocricy at worst

 

The point i was highlighting was that religion of all types impacts peoples thinking. Whether its the powerful super power leaders, or the extremist.

 

Of course it does..who has sugegsted that the religious people are not affected by their religion?..it's blindingly obvious

 

But that wasn't my question, I aksed for examples where they claimed that their religion had said go and kill, had said that it's Ok to do this.

 

Still haven't seen any

 

 

You are obviously of the blinkered mind set that only any Christians who do bad things are not proper christians. So it makes it difficult to debate properly.

 

Pathetic again..and totally wrong, Christians do bad things, inlcuding "proper Christians".

 

You ignore my question again

 

 

And I still haven't seen an example of a Christian being told by their faith that it's Ok to kill, to commit atrocities

 

A quote re the recent killing of Lee Ryan

 

Bakri Mohammed added: "Under Islam this can be justified, he was not targeting civilians, he was taking on a military man in an operation."

 

"To people around here [in the Middle East] he is a hero for what he has done." The cleric said Adebolajo had "a lot of anger about the Iraq war and the war on terror."

 

As these wars were going on, a 2007 recording of Bakri Mohammed revealed him saying, "When you meet [Westerners], slice their own necks," and "make the blood spill all over." He implied that doing so would tire out the Western enemies and force them into ending the wars.

 

Added Bakri Mohammed: "Use the sword and remove the head of the enemy."

 

I know this man isn't typical of Muslims but I've never seen any equivalent of this with regard to Christianity but would welcome seen similar incidents

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Havent ignored anything. I stated you didnt believe in god, and you don't. How is that ignoring anything?

]

 

You ignored what i'd prevuiouslyposted about the origins of the Bible..I've made my stance perfectly clear on many occasions

 

And your explanations of how they study and not cherry pick is so flimsy and poor it really isnt worth acknowledging. It ignores the obvious atrocities in favour of a fluffy non answer.

 

 

Nonsense, it's like studying any great work of literature, you learn and understand better as you revisit it and learn from others and reference works. My understanding of Blake's SOngs of Innocence and Experience for example has changed greatly form when I first studied them aged 18 to now. I don't know if you've ever studied any of the great works of literature in a formal way? if not I can understand why you don't get it but I can't understand why you dismiss it

 

For example, how can moses be used as the founder of christian morality with the Ten Commandments, yet ignore the ethnic cleansing he committed as guided by god.

 

The Midianites? I can't explain that and make no attempt to offer an explanation of my own.I did look it up and found this interesting

 

http://christianthinktank.com/midian.html

 

Saying you havent studied it enough whilst giving no answer just doesnt cut it. I've read some christian justifications of it, and its flimsy to say the least.

 

I have too and I didn't find them all flimsy at all..but some were, those that haven't studied this in detail, as most haven't

 

Even if it was so complex, then that doesnt make sense either. Why would god leave a message that could be interpreted to justify rape, ethnic cleansing and misogyny.

 

There is no if..it is incredibly complex

 

That's making the unproven assumption that he did so. But then that's why you study it, to try to understand why. He's a God so why not?

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Moses was not "the founder of Christian morality". He received the Ten Commandments from God himself.

 

Moses was carrying out God's command to kill the Midianites. God judged them just like he will judge every other person who has not accepted Jesus Christ's offer of salvation. "The wages of sin is death".

 

Interesting...God hates sinners, God judges sinners, God punishes sinners?

 

I guess that is consistant

 

Genuinely accept Christ as your saviour and you'll find a way to God, commit sin and you will be punished. Genocide is a human thing so if God does it or orders it I suppose it isn't genocide?

 

God isn't a softie who forgives everything?

[For Us All]

Oh dear...I never suggested bias, just that you have slagged off the mail in the past and yet seem prepared to use it when it seems to suit you; a double standard at best and downright hypocricy at worst

 

 

 

Of course it does..who has sugegsted that the religious people are not affected by their religion?..it's blindingly obvious

 

But that wasn't my question, I aksed for examples where they claimed that their religion had said go and kill, had said that it's Ok to do this.

 

Still haven't seen any

 

 

 

 

Pathetic again..and totally wrong, Christians do bad things, inlcuding "proper Christians".

 

You ignore my question again

 

 

And I still haven't seen an example of a Christian being told by their faith that it's Ok to kill, to commit atrocities

 

A quote re the recent killing of Lee Ryan

 

Bakri Mohammed added: "Under Islam this can be justified, he was not targeting civilians, he was taking on a military man in an operation."

 

"To people around here [in the Middle East] he is a hero for what he has done." The cleric said Adebolajo had "a lot of anger about the Iraq war and the war on terror."

 

As these wars were going on, a 2007 recording of Bakri Mohammed revealed him saying, "When you meet [Westerners], slice their own necks," and "make the blood spill all over." He implied that doing so would tire out the Western enemies and force them into ending the wars.

 

Added Bakri Mohammed: "Use the sword and remove the head of the enemy."

 

I know this man isn't typical of Muslims but I've never seen any equivalent of this with regard to Christianity but would welcome seen similar incidents

 

Like I've said previously,the 'suspects' are likely to plead not guilty because of exactly what you have said.The military are a justifiable target to these people and no doubt they will have a lot of support.Should be an interesting trial with worldwide publicity.Call me cynical if you like but these two barbarians will probably plead 'diminished responsibility' and get a suspended sentence under the EUHR Bill because they are entitled to a 'family life'?

[Tone]

Interesting...God hates sinners, God judges sinners, God punishes sinners?

 

I guess that is consistant

 

Genuinely accept Christ as your saviour and you'll find a way to God, commit sin and you will be punished. Genocide is a human thing so if God does it or orders it I suppose it isn't genocide?

 

God isn't a softie who forgives everything?

 

No God hates sin, not the sinners, so if he's "a softie" it's because he loves his people - all of them.

 

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

 

God judges everyone.

 

But because of Jesus' sacrifice (once for everybody) those who accept him will not be condemned.

 

"There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."

[JOHNNYAITCH]

No God hates sin, not the sinners, so if he's "a softie" it's because he loves his people - all of them.

 

Thanks...an important difference

 

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

 

God judges everyone.

 

But because of Jesus' sacrifice (once for everybody) those who accept him will not be condemned.

 

"There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."

 

That focusses and clarifies nicely

 

And puts (reinforces) old testament into some sort of context for me

 

Thanks

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Like I've said previously,the 'suspects' are likely to plead not guilty because of exactly what you have said.The military are a justifiable target to these people and no doubt they will have a lot of support.Should be an interesting trial with worldwide publicity.Call me cynical if you like but these two barbarians will probably plead 'diminished responsibility' and get a suspended sentence under the EUHR Bill because they are entitled to a 'family life'?

 

Not surprised at your cynicism..can sympathise

 

But I reckon they'll not 'get away with it' in any way cos they'll be judged by British law and nothing else is relevant

[For Us All]

Police rush to help Choudary.

I know it's only the Daily Mail and can't possibly be true?:rolleyes:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333199/Police-rush-home-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary-protect-family-threats-blames-Camerons-crusade-turning-young-Muslims-terror.html

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Police rush to help Choudary.

I know it's only the Daily Mail and can't possibly be true?:rolleyes:

 

It's truthful and not a worthless rag when it agrees with you ;)

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333199/Police-rush-home-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary-protect-family-threats-blames-Camerons-crusade-turning-young-Muslims-terror.html

 

Unfortunately he is entitled to preotection just like anyone else...and though it pains me, we should be proud that we protect everyone here and not just those we 'like'.

[Andyregs]

Oh dear...I never suggested bias, just that you have slagged off the mail in the past and yet seem prepared to use it when it seems to suit you; a double standard at best and downright hypocricy at worst

 

 

 

 

I specifically included that one for you because you always use that rag. And if I didn't and only gave the guardian you probably would have said it was biased. My point was the it was covered by the spectrum. Giving a range of sources whether i agreed with all or not. Not hypocritical at all. But again you argue in the most bizarre and patronising way. The rest I'm just going to go round in circles with because you just won't accept any arguments that don't fit your arguments so its pointless. I don't defend Islam in any way which you seem to forget. Quite the opposite.

[Andyregs]

Interesting...God hates sinners, God judges sinners, God punishes sinners?

 

I guess that is consistant

 

Genuinely accept Christ as your saviour and you'll find a way to God, commit sin and you will be punished. Genocide is a human thing so if God does it or orders it I suppose it isn't genocide?

 

God isn't a softie who forgives everything?

 

Hilarious! You pull everything I post apart and just accept that! Seriously, use the same rigour both ways because that is just bizarre. They Commit genocide in the name of a god you don't believe in and it's not genlcide because it was in gods name. I'm out with that one!

[Andyregs]

Moses was not "the founder of Christian morality". He received the Ten Commandments from God himself.

 

Moses was carrying out God's command to kill the Midianites. God judged them just like he will judge every other person who has not accepted Jesus Christ's offer of salvation. "The wages of sin is death".

 

So god ordered ethnic cleansing. At least for JH's benefit we got there. Why didn't the young girls and virgins (only female virgins, they aren't allowed to be gay) get killed too? They 'sinned' as well? Spoils of war? I'd love to hear the justification of that one.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Hilarious! You pull everything I lost apart and just accept that! Seriously, use the same rigour both ways because that just bizarre.

 

What nonsense

 

IO have accepted nothing other than the above being an honest account of what Tone believes and it's consistant not that it's justified (and of course it's all hogwash)

 

 

ommit genocide in the name of a god you don't believe in and it's not genlcide because it was in gods name. I'm out with that one!

 

More nonsense...I am attempting to understand why they don't see it as genocide, why these things are considered acceptable, to understand what they believe so that I may better comment on it; I'm in no way agreeing or accepting that it isn't genocide (even though it didn't happen anyway).