Woolwich stabbing/machete attack

[JOHNNYAITCH]

So now we show atrocities in the bible it's now not an atrocity because its god.

 

That's one way of looking at it...can God be judged by the same standards as man?

 

Remember, though, none of it actually happened

[Andyregs]

 

Without faith then it's not possible to understand it..a bit like (on a much smaller scale) if I read a biography and didn't have faith that it was a true account of the person's life then it's just a story and nothing more (Not a good analogy)

 

:

 

But again, that's about believing if it was a true account or not. Not understanding it. You can understand a story whether true or not.

 

That's one way of looking at it...can God be judged by the same standards as man?

 

Remember, though, none of it actually happened

 

We were arguing whether there were atrocities in the bible. If you use that argument then that basically says there aren't any in any religion because its god. Also the atrocities were carried out by man. Again, just like atrocities in all religions. They all use the argument that it was gods work, which is what makes it dangerous. So yes, I'll happily judge 'god' (all of them) by the same standards.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Being proven wrong? You have a funny way if doing that!

 

Sorry I don't understand that bit..what are you referring to?

 

Obviously you have shown the same standards of debate to both sides.[/ We were discussing both, but not one single argument against Tones obviously flawed logic.

 

Oh dear, I've alerady explained that and it's not obviously flawed, it's flawed in your opinion. I happen to agree but that does not make it obviously falwed

 

Everything in the Bible is hogwash so I don't need to present a logical argument..get it? Indeed it's almiost impossible to do so as the Bible isn't logical nor claims to be. I don't argue in detail cos I don't need to..it's fiction, hogwash, made up,

 

Only a pandering 'oh thats interesting'.

 

Rubbish, it is interesting as it gave me a better understanding of what he believes, I don't pander

 

No comment on his admitting that god did order ethnic cleansing, and misogyny either.

 

No need to comment, it's what he believes but none of it happened...the God Tone believs in (I think) cannot be judged by human standards and I don't get why you do so

 

Does he not understand it? Is it not too complicated?

 

I doubt he fully understand it and all it's intricacise and complexities..people have studied the Bible in detail for decades without claiming to fully understand it...a point I have made several times

 

My argument was that all religions contain atrocities.

 

I don't disagree...but I am still waiting for any 'Christian atrocity' where those carrying out the deed claimed (to paraphrase) "My religion says this is right, indeed it commands me to do such things, it's in the Bible"

 

And the promise of eternal life life makes them dangerous if people follow some of the blatantly awful stuff in them.

 

Yep..one of the major reasons for the rise of Christianity..the promise of eternal life. Whwre does the Bible say "go and commit these atrocities"..not saying it doesn't but I've not seen where it does

 

However as long as people stuck to the law and therefore choose to ignore that stuff, and it doesnt affect anyone elses life, then they should be free to believe what they want free from persecution.

 

Yep

 

On the other hand, others should be free to challenge those beliefs in the same way any other belief (in politics, Art or the supernatural for example) can be.

 

Totally agree

 

You have proved any if that wrong.

 

Eh?

 

I've no issue with anyone challenging religion or any aspect of it, but the challenge has to be valid and based on a good understanding of that religion and not cherry picking aspects of the religion that suit someone's argument whilst ignoring that which does not. Same for those that advocate a religion.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

But again, that's about believing if it was a true account or not. Not understanding it. You can understand a story whether true or not.

 

Yes but it's then ONLY a story so you understand it only as a story. If you have faith that it is a true account then it becomes much more than a story, something much more important, something real, an actual account of real events and not just a story.

 

 

 

We were arguing whether there were atrocities in the bible. If you use that argument then that basically says there aren't any in any religion because its god.

 

That's not what i said at all..they are atrocities in human terms but that does not mean that one can judge God by the same standards...if he's a God then he can do what he wants and no crime has been committed cos human law does not apply to God

 

Surely the ultimate atrocity would be the great flood and yet that rarely if ever gets a mention..why? Cos it's above humanity?

 

Also the atrocities were carried out by man.

 

Indeed they were

 

Again, just like atrocities in all religions. They all use the argument that it was gods work, which is what makes it dangerous. So yes, I'll happily judge 'god' (all of them) by the same standards.

 

Claiming it's God's work and claiming your religious text says go and do this it's Ok are two very different things

 

Fair enough..but I can see how a believer would not apply the same judgement to God as they would to a human

[Andyregs]

(1) Yes but it's then ONLY a story so you understand it only as a story. If you have faith that it is a true account then it becomes much more than a story, something much more important, something real, an actual account of real events and not just a story.

 

 

 

(2) That's not what i said at all..they are atrocities in human terms but that does not mean that one can judge God by the same standards...if he's a God then he can do what he wants and no crime has been committed cos human law does not apply to God

 

Surely the ultimate atrocity would be the great flood and yet that rarely if ever gets a mention..why? Cos it's above humanity?

 

 

 

(1) Again that's about belief not understanding. If I have faith that I saw a ghost last night, does that make me understand what exactly a ghost is? If I have faith that I was the reincarnation of napoleon, does that mean I understand how reincarnation works. Not at all, just that I believe it.

 

(2) So the same goes for lucifer then? The devil doesn't commit bad deeds because he isn't human? Actually, it's interesting to see the death count between god and the devil in the bible. It's something like: Evil devil 10 - peaceful and loving god 2.5 million (estimated!).

I was going to mention the great flood (though that seems one of the randomly picked 'metaphorical' stories). Amazing how its taught to show gods love and compassion.

 

Right it's sunny I'm going out!

[JOHNNYAITCH]

(1) Again that's about belief not understanding. If I have faith that I saw a ghost last night, does that make me understand what exactly a ghost is?

 

No but u nless you belive that it wasa ghost and therefore that ghosts exist you'll never understand wht a ghost is

 

If I have faith that I was the reincarnation of napoleon, does that mean I understand how reincarnation works. Not at all, just that I believe it.

 

But if you have faith that reincarnation exists then that will help you to understand it, if you think it's rubbish then when you read about it, it's just fiction to you

 

(2) So the same goes for lucifer then? The devil doesn't commit bad deeds because he isn't human? Actually, it's interesting to see the death count between god and the devil in the bible. It's something like: Evil devil 10 - peaceful and loving god 2.5 million (estimated!).

 

The devil isn't God so not quite the same. Can a supernatural being that isn't human be truly judged by human law? I sugegst not

 

I was going to mention the great flood (though that seems one of the randomly picked 'metaphorical' stories). Amazing how its taught to show gods love and compassion.

 

I don't find it amazing at all, one cannot make an omelette etc. I can perfectly see how it was God showing his love by saving humanity from itself..and remember as a God, he wan't committing a 'crime' in doing what he did (or didn't do I should say)

 

Right it's sunny I'm going out!

 

Enjoy; already outside working in the summerhouse..bliss

[Andyregs]

 

 

I don't find it amazing at all, one cannot make an omelette etc. I can perfectly see how it was God showing his love by saving humanity from itself..and remember as a God, he wan't committing a 'crime' in doing what he did (or didn't do I should say)

 

I think that's the belief that can make religion dangerous. Showing love by killing innocents.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I think that's the belief that can make religion dangerous. Showing love by killing innocents.

 

I don't agree cos they believe that God can do this, not men, and he aint judged by the same standards, and nor should he be..he's a god after all.

 

I've yet to see an exampled where a Christian has killed innocents and claimed his religion told him to do so, that the Bible says go and do such a thing

[Andyregs]

I don't agree cos they believe that God can do this, not men, and he aint judged by the same standards, and nor should he be..he's a god after all.

 

I've yet to see an exampled where a Christian has killed innocents and claimed his religion told him to do so, that the Bible says go and do such a thing

 

No you just don't accept it.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

No you just don't accept it.

 

I don't accept it cos I haven't yet seen an example of such a thing

 

Give me an example and I'll accept it

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Some of my posts have disappeared..about papal infallibility :( (Althogether now..hurrah!!!!)

[Andyregs]

I don't agree cos they believe that God can do this, not men, and he aint judged by the same standards, and nor should he be..he's a god after all.

 

So if someone flies a plane into a building saying it was god who commanded them, can't that be justified the same way?

 

Some of my posts have disappeared..about papal infallibility :( (Althogether now..hurrah!!!!)

 

Different thread.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

So if someone flies a plane into a building saying it was god who commanded them, can't that be justified the same way?

 

No cos they claim that their religion said it's Ok, that in their religious text it says it;'s Ok to do this..very different

 

al-Qaeda's statement "A Statement from Qaidat al-Jihad Regarding the Mandates of the Heroes and the Legality of the Operations in New York and Washington." Makes it quite clear. I recommend reading it if you haven't

 

More about them...

 

"A small, radical fringe in the Salafi community argues that it is an Islamic duty to use violence to remove leaders who do not properly follow or enforce Islam. Known as jihadis, these Salafis do not reject the other (non-violent) methods, but they do emphasize the necessity of violence. Al-Qaeda is part of this group"

 

Those Muslims who follow this are a tiny minority but I still haven't seen an example of Christians who made similar claims

 

 

Different thread.

 

Correct...too much sun

[Tone]

There are some key points made here.

 

It is curious how those who are on the opposite side of the debate about faith choose to use the accounts in the Bible as an argument against their opponents, even though they don't believe what is written and claim, at the same time, that it is all made up.

 

JH makes a great point - God is "the Creator of the ends of the earth" and so he is sovereign over everything. As they used to say about competitions in comics and newspapers, "the editor's decision is final".

 

Lastly, and most important, Christians would not use Old Testament factual accounts of wars, murder, killing, etc. to justify their actions. Jesus paid due respect to the Law (10 Commandments etc) and said, "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose." Everything in the Bible points towards Jesus coming (and his return). What Jesus says is the last word. That is not to say the OT isn't relevant, it is as a lead-up to the Gospel.

 

So the most important command is "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

And just to underline what I'm getting at, he finished that by saying "The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

[Andyregs]

No cos they claim that their religion said it's Ok, that in their religious text it says it;'s Ok to do this..very different

 

 

So if someone says god told them to do it, it's ok?

 

There are some key points made here.

 

It is curious how those who are on the opposite side of the debate about faith choose to use the accounts in the Bible as an argument against their opponents, even though they don't believe what is written and claim, at the same time, that it is all made up.

 

 

So the most important command is "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

And just to underline what I'm getting at, he finished that by saying "The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

 

Firstly, if we are debating what the bible says, then quoting the bible is a bit if a necessity. Secondly, if religious people are going to use circular logic, the bible is true because the bible says so, then again picking faults in the logic is the only way to do that.

Do you believe in the story if Adam and Eve being factual? Noah's ark? I only ask because you talked about believing its all made up.

 

Lastly, does your last point suggest that it's absolutely fine within Christianity to be gay ?