Amy Winehouse Dead

[Burt]

Talking of addictions, are you on drugs now? You seem to struggle with any kind a logical debate. Surely even you can see that you cant cure cancer through (as you put it) not being able to take something?

 

Even with cancer it's partly in the mind how well you deal with it, to an extent.

[Utch]

I don't want to post too much as Tony has covered it very well and I hope you do agree with him as you say Andy, however you do seem to want to continue to write it off. No one is saying we should go easy on them because they are inflicted with this disease. You do need to understand the situation they are in though. As Tony says, they are not capable of rational thinking and don't see it like you do. They don't see it as the straightforward choice you see it as.

 

We can say it's a chocie because we have never experienced it.

[Andyregs]

Humour me for a second with this, if I am correct in my theory, would you still say its about choices? Or would you agree that in fact many of them are genetically prone to addiction and as such were unable to make those choices in the same way you might be able to?

 

You're hitting on the age old debate of nature versus nurture here. And as you will know, there is no conclusive answer (and the truth can lie anywhere between the two side). Personality traits dont have to be genetic. And if having an addictive personality was genetic, then that would mean it would/could be passed on to other generations. However to prove that would be difficult. If a drug addict had parents who were addicts, would that make it genetic, or be because of the conditions and environment they were brought up in. Its like trying to decide if the fat kid is fat because mummy is fat, or because mummy serves up portions that a twice as much as necessary.

Having said all that, does it really matter? If an addictive personality does exist, then it makes no difference if it was genetic or your environment.

You cant prove an addictive personality doesnt exist. Its very hard to prove a negative. However, how do you differentiate between those who possibly do have it, and those who are just reckless/selfish/stupid? Or do all addicts have addictive personalities. Many times when you hear it quoted, its used as an excuse for peoples behaviour. Trying to convince themselves it wasn't there fault because of their condition. I took drugs because of it...I cheated on my wife because of it....etc...

For me the term 'addictive personality' as is currently used, seems a bit like pseudo science at worst, and vague at best. Addiction is a physical condition where your body craves the drug. That isnt genetic. So what someone talking about having an addictive personality is saying, is that they are more likely to take these drugs before they get addicted, because of their personality, and then end up addicted. Is it just a user friendly label. At the risk of upsetting people, would I not be talking of the same thing if I said addicts had a personality with a lack of willpower. However, I think it is widely accepted that OCD exists (I have to check the damn door three times before Im convinced!), and that could be classed as addictive in some ways. I wouldnt argue it was genetic though.

So to summarise, it is all down to choices. Numerous things drive those choices (Possibly even genetics). Classing it as a disease suggests that the person had no choice, which is dangerous.

[Andyregs]

Even with cancer it's partly in the mind how well you deal with it, to an extent.

 

It wont cure it though. Unless you are going to take this debate into flower fairy territory!

[Utch]

Classing it as a disease does not mean that the person did not have a choice. Nowhere in the definition of disease does it mention choice.

 

An addict will not think of implications, they only think of the next high, where it's going to come from and how it can be better than before. They do not think like you and I, it is a fundamental problem in their line of thinking and should be treated it a disease so that they can be treated properly. Telling them to effectively "man up" will see many more needless deaths.

[deanleese]

Execute all suppliers/dealers/smugglers, simple.

[Marge56]

Can't disagree with much of that.

 

Most people do not go from doing nothing to doing Heroin, generally they will work there way towards it, perhaps starting with weed, a bit of fet, coccaine etc. Alot of people do not progress beyond this, and become functioning drug users, believing they are in complete control.

However, some then start to dabble in drugs such as Heroin, either because they believe they can control that as well or its just a natural progression. Many by this time are surrounded by like minded people, which helps to justify the actions. I would argue that by the time many of them fall into Heroin addiction, they are no longer capable of making good choices.

 

Yes they take themselves to the brink through gateway drugs, but by the time they finally take the plunge into serious addiction, they are no longer making choices. So at what point did it go wrong? Was it dabbling in a bit of weed? Taking the odd pill? Doing a bit of coke on a night out?

 

I strongly believe that some people have addictive personalities. Some of us can dabble in a bit of weed without ever doing anything else. Others can coke themselves up of a weekend and leave it at that, but some people get addicted to the buzz or the high at an early stage and unless they are surrounded by people who will hold them back, they will eventually fall into dark times. Basically, it is my belief that a drug addict has a genetic makeup which renders them unable to see when its gone too far. I would love to have the time and funding to study this theory more, alas I only have my own personal experiences from people I know who have fallen to drug addiction.

 

I think the people who can't just have a beer or two without going on to get smashed, or end up drinking the bottle when they intended just to have a glass of wine are the sort of people suspeptable to drug addiction - basically they are not able to moderate themselves.

 

Humour me for a second with this, if I am correct in my theory, would you still say its about choices? Or would you agree that in fact many of them are genetically prone to addiction and as such were unable to make those choices in the same way you might be able to?

 

 

Excellent post Tony. It is my personal belief that addiction is an "invisible" illness. You can dress it up however you like, but as you say, some of us can go out and have a few drinks, whilst others have to go over the line and get totally out of it. Some people take drugs socially, if you like, whilst others just don't know where the line is. An addictive nature takes some explaining as if you don't have this particular trait, it would be difficult to explain or to some extent, understand. I certainly don't think there is enough help out there for addicts, whether is be drink, drugs or whatever. Its like someone with OCD, they know what they are doing is "over the top" in comparison, but they can't help it. I loved Amy Winehouse's music and I think her death,although a shock, was no suprise because to me she was a prime example of this "invisible" illness. RIP Amy. :(

[Andyregs]

Classing it as a disease does not mean that the person did not have a choice. Nowhere in the definition of disease does it mention choice.

 

An addict will not think of implications, they only think of the next high, where it's going to come from and how it can be better than before. They do not think like you and I, it is a fundamental problem in their line of thinking and should be treated it a disease so that they can be treated properly. Telling them to effectively "man up" will see many more needless deaths.

 

And telling them it's not their fault as it's a disease will be even worse. An addict doesn't think of the implications, but that is only once they have become addicts. Someone doesn't suddenly come down with the 'disease' and have no choice but to take the drugs. There is a path that has to be taken, and you only become an addict through the choices you take.

Having debated all that, i am not arguing that addicts don't need help and support.

[Pete T]

Execute all suppliers/dealers/smugglers, simple.

 

Nope. Mankind has always looked for a way out of the dull "human condition". And always will. I did a lot of things (bike racing soft drugs and music mainly) to get a "HIT" and a way out. And it worked!

 

I never injected anything, but most of my generation (80s kids) did stuff and know people who went on to die of it or summat related.

 

Most do these daft things then get kids then calm down. Some don't.

 

Some don't even want to go there.

 

Point is, it will never stop. Sorry to be so nihilistic.

[FolkyVale]

Sorry to be so nihilistic.

 

I wouldn't worry about it - most of us on here (including me) don't know what it means.

 

In fact, I'd wager a bet that that's the first time the word has even been used on OVF!

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Even with cancer it's partly in the mind how well you deal with it, to an extent.

 

Your mindset only makes a difference if you are able to push yourself to go thru the hellish treatment that might "cure" you

 

Someone who has the will to "fight" it who goes thru the same treatment as someone who does not have that fight, will get the same result.

[Woodward]

Your mindset only makes a difference if you are able to push yourself to go thru the hellish treatment that might "cure" you

 

Someone who has the will to "fight" it who goes thru the same treatment as someone who does not have that fight, will get the same result.

 

 

What a load of rubbish, as usual.

[Andyregs]

What a load of rubbish, as usual.

 

because....

[Burt]

nonsense, JH. you're seriously saying you get the same results regardless of your attitude towards it? so there's no such thing as your body giving up when you give up mentally?

[Andyregs]

nonsense, JH. you're seriously saying you get the same results regardless of your attitude towards it? so there's no such thing as your body giving up when you give up mentally?

 

Try doing it without the medication.