Amy Winehouse Dead

[Utch]

Rubbish and to label it that makes it worse for the addict as it takes choice. All an addict has to do to 'cure' themselves is to stop taking the drug. Apply some willpower. If only it was so easy with real diseases such as cancer.

I agree that addiction should be treated by the NHS, and that addicts dont plan on becoming addicts, however I do find calling it a disease rather offensive.

 

Depression takes choice. Try being happier? It's harder than it sounds. Saying no is harder than it sounds. Saying no to anything, it's not just drugs but if often ends up there.

 

I find you saying that someone can just no and that all they have to do is apply some willpower offensive. It's a lot more difficult than that. The mind doesn't work like that, especially not the mind of an addict.

[blinkme]

i'd definitely take heroin if i thought quitting it only took some "willpower"

[oakesypvfc]

i'd definitely take heroin if i thought quitting it only took some "willpower"

 

Very good point!

[Andyregs]

Depression takes choice. Try being happier? It's harder than it sounds. Saying no is harder than it sounds. Saying no to anything, it's not just drugs but if often ends up there.

 

I find you saying that someone can just no and that all they have to do is apply some willpower offensive. It's a lot more difficult than that. The mind doesn't work like that, especially not the mind of an addict.

 

I would class mental conditions such as depression differently to addictions as well. Though I would class it as a disorder and not a disease, so a poor example. However, the way you describe it makes it sound like there is no difference and the addict had no choice but to take drugs because they have this 'disease'. A rather fatalistic way of looking at it, and one that doesn't do an addict any good at all.

[Andyregs]

i'd definitely take heroin if i thought quitting it only took some "willpower"

 

How else does someone stop being an addict?

 

Do smokers have a disease? Does quitting not take will power?

[blinkme]

How else does someone stop being an addict?

 

Do smokers have a disease? Does quitting not take will power?

 

yeah, lung disease

 

addicts quit heroin by being physically prevented from taking it á la trainspotting

[Andyregs]

yeah, lung disease

 

addicts quit heroin by being physically prevented from taking it á la trainspotting

 

Lung disease is a disease obviously, but that isnt what we were talking about, despite your attempt to twist my words. Unless anyone can claim smoking itself is a disease, then your argument falls apart.

 

So you cure the disease of heroin, but doing nothing?

[blinkme]

take smack and then quit it? just for a laugh, it's obvs easy

[Andyregs]

take smack and then quit it? just for a laugh, it's obvs easy

 

When did I ever say it was easy???? You're just sounding silly now.

[blinkme]

Rubbish and to label it that makes it worse for the addict as it takes choice. All an addict has to do to 'cure' themselves is to stop taking the drug. Apply some willpower. If only it was so easy with real diseases such as cancer.

I agree that addiction should be treated by the NHS, and that addicts dont plan on becoming addicts, however I do find calling it a disease rather offensive.

 

 

"so easy"

 

uh ohhhh

[Guest Tony Dyche]

Interesting debate. Andy, I see your point, would you say addicts have a disorder then?

I think your view is a bit black and White for the reality. I can see why you differentiate it from disease though. I would however describe any addiction that effects the quality of your life beyond what you can reasonably cope with for the worse as an illness.

A lot of addicts suffer depression, although the drugs may cause it it still renders that person unable to deal with the problem. Some people are lucky and hit the bottom in time to ask for help, others are less fortunate and sadly kill themselves.

There is no point treating addicts with kid gloves and in no way should it be tolerated by society however, more understanding of the problem would help those close to an addict to better placed to help when asked.

 

Yes it takes will power, but it takes support of family, friends and professionals also, and then if they are lucky they might get clean forever. How many times do you hear people say I am in control of it when they dabble? Those words are the first throws of addiction.

 

In summary, I see your point but I think you are being over simplistic of the issue in my opinion.

[Andyregs]

Interesting debate. Andy, I see your point, would you say addicts have a disorder then?

I think your view is a bit black and White for the reality. I can see why you differentiate it from disease though. I would however describe any addiction that effects the quality of your life beyond what you can reasonably cope with for the worse as an illness.

A lot of addicts suffer depression, although the drugs may cause it it still renders that person unable to deal with the problem. Some people are lucky and hit the bottom in time to ask for help, others are less fortunate and sadly kill themselves.

There is no point treating addicts with kid gloves and in no way should it be tolerated by society however, more understanding of the problem would help those close to an addict to better placed to help when asked.

 

Yes it takes will power, but it takes support of family, friends and professionals also, and then if they are lucky they might get clean forever. How many times do you hear people say I am in control of it when they dabble? Those words are the first throws of addiction.

 

In summary, I see your point but I think you are being over simplistic of the issue in my opinion.

 

I agree, and you sum it up with the comment about not treating them with kid gloves. Labelling it as a disease takes away their responsibility for their choices. Perhaps it is a disorder (and that may sound harsh, as i understand there are plenty of reasons that someone may end up as an addict, and deserve treatment, support and all the help they can be given), but my point still stands. Unless you can classify smoking as a disease, then the same counts for other addictions (what we label a legal and illegal is not relevant).

[Andyregs]

"so easy"

 

uh ohhhh

 

Talking of addictions, are you on drugs now? You seem to struggle with any kind a logical debate. Surely even you can see that you cant cure cancer through (as you put it) not being able to take something?

[Guest Tony Dyche]

I agree, and you sum it up with the comment about not treating them with kid gloves. Labelling it as a disease takes away their responsibility for their choices. Perhaps it is a disorder (and that may sound harsh, as i understand there are plenty of reasons that someone may end up as an addict, and deserve treatment, support and all the help they can be given), but my point still stands. Unless you can classify smoking as a disease, then the same counts for other addictions (what we label a legal and illegal is not relevant).

 

Can't disagree with much of that.

 

Most people do not go from doing nothing to doing Heroin, generally they will work there way towards it, perhaps starting with weed, a bit of fet, coccaine etc. Alot of people do not progress beyond this, and become functioning drug users, believing they are in complete control.

However, some then start to dabble in drugs such as Heroin, either because they believe they can control that as well or its just a natural progression. Many by this time are surrounded by like minded people, which helps to justify the actions. I would argue that by the time many of them fall into Heroin addiction, they are no longer capable of making good choices.

 

Yes they take themselves to the brink through gateway drugs, but by the time they finally take the plunge into serious addiction, they are no longer making choices. So at what point did it go wrong? Was it dabbling in a bit of weed? Taking the odd pill? Doing a bit of coke on a night out?

 

I strongly believe that some people have addictive personalities. Some of us can dabble in a bit of weed without ever doing anything else. Others can coke themselves up of a weekend and leave it at that, but some people get addicted to the buzz or the high at an early stage and unless they are surrounded by people who will hold them back, they will eventually fall into dark times. Basically, it is my belief that a drug addict has a genetic makeup which renders them unable to see when its gone too far. I would love to have the time and funding to study this theory more, alas I only have my own personal experiences from people I know who have fallen to drug addiction.

 

I think the people who can't just have a beer or two without going on to get smashed, or end up drinking the bottle when they intended just to have a glass of wine are the sort of people suspeptable to drug addiction - basically they are not able to moderate themselves.

 

Humour me for a second with this, if I am correct in my theory, would you still say its about choices? Or would you agree that in fact many of them are genetically prone to addiction and as such were unable to make those choices in the same way you might be able to?

[oakesypvfc]

top post!!