Is Atheism Irrational?

[Andyregs]

Also, there is a difference in terms you are using. Atheist and theist refer to belief, and agnostic and gnostic refer to knowledge. It's possible to be atheist and agnostic which is why the original article started off so poorly in the first place.

[Yukon]

http://www.venganza.org/

[JOHNNYAITCH]

IMO what people don't get especially when they go on about the different religions and gods is.... that might be exactly what God wants so to say their existance is in any way proof he does not exist is seriously flawed. Maybe part of God's purpose/plan is to offer up different beliefs and it's how one reacts to them and lives one's life whilst believeing that counts, including deliberately allowing atheism I've no idea if that is the case but it would be interesting to know on what basis anyone could dismiss that.

 

There is a strong argument that atheism (the absence of belief that any deities exist) is seriously flawed as it offers no tangible/proven explanation as to where "it" all came from, how life started etc..it contradicts itself by having faith in something not proven..that it wasn't "God"

 

Dawkins himself has admitted that he is not an atheist, that he is agnostic

'That doesn't mean I'm absolutely confident (that God does not exist), that I absolutely know, because I don't.' there is a man who gets it and is prepared to open up his mind to the possibilities even with the veiws he has

 

But I'm staying out of this cos it isn't a debate when people won't open up their minds to possibilities

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I also chuckle when people go on about the "truth"..in religious terms truth does not mean that the words are a true account..it means they contain the true message.

 

One of the reasons why one has to study it (like a great work of literature) to really get to the truth of the message behind the words..something else many people who go on about the Bible not being true just don't get..it's not meant to be truth in the normal human sense

 

"Truth is that which is consistent with the mind, will, character, glory, and being of God. Even more to the point: Truth is the self-expression of God. That is the biblical meaning of truth. Because the definition of truth flows from God, truth is theological"

 

But again, a lot of people don't bother to open up their mind to this and look at it in that context, they just dismiss it as not being 'true' without kjn owing what true means in this sense.

[Santa]

If a Christian chooses not to believe in Allah but cannot prove He doesn't exist, are they being irrational?

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Good question (I think :) )

 

Rationally only one deity can actually exist and so maybe it is rational that if you believe in one of them then the others cannot possibly exist? Your rationale that the others don't exist is your belief in the existance of the one you believe in..or so I believe ;)

[Trampilot]

Good read this... a real "open a bottle of wine and talk through the night" job.

 

I knew a girl - born again Christian. I asked her to do exactly above (she declined) because I couldn't quite grasp how you can devote your life in the way she had. I don't believe in God and her belief was to me completely "unbelievable", for want of a better phrase. She even dumped her boyfriend because "she felt it was wrong in the eyes of God". Belief then becomes the intepretation of a feeling rather than anything based on fact.

 

 

Adding to the stew... In the same vein as if a tree falls in an empty wood does anyone hear it ... Does God exist if nobody believes in him/her/them/it?

[Andyregs]

IMO what people don't get especially when they go on about the different religions and gods is.... that might be exactly what God wants so to say their existance is in any way proof he does not exist is seriously flawed. Maybe part of God's purpose/plan is to offer up different beliefs and it's how one reacts to them and lives one's life whilst believeing that counts, including deliberately allowing atheism I've no idea if that is the case but it would be interesting to know on what basis anyone could dismiss that.

 

There is a strong argument that atheism (the absence of belief that any deities exist) is seriously flawed as it offers no tangible/proven explanation as to where "it" all came from, how life started etc..it contradicts itself by having faith in something not proven..that it wasn't "God"

 

Dawkins himself has admitted that he is not an atheist, that he is agnostic

'That doesn't mean I'm absolutely confident (that God does not exist), that I absolutely know, because I don't.' there is a man who gets it and is prepared to open up his mind to the possibilities even with the veiws he has

 

But I'm staying out of this cos it isn't a debate when people won't open up their minds to possibilities

 

What people don't get...is what you just made up?

 

There isn't a strong argument that atheism is flawed because it doesn't offer an explanation of where anything comes from, unless you totally misunderstand what atheism is. It isn't a belief, there is nothing to prove. Its like saying If you don't believe in unicorns then explain where everything comes from because i believe it all started with unicorns. Other people/things/beliefs may try to answer those questions, but that isn't atheism. Again there is a difference between atheism/theism and agnostic/gnostic. Not believing in leprechauns isn't irrational if you can't explain rainbows, however science can now explain rainbows. It doesn't contradict itself at all, and if it is 'faith' in something that can't be proven, then only in the same way someone has 'faith' that we aren't ruled by a giant cucumber in the sky. Its such a cop out argument.

Its interesting you use Dawkins as an example of someone who 'gets it'. In that i completely agree, but find you using it bizarre, since many similar arguments of his Ive put across over the years here, yet you have claimed i 'don't get it'. He also calls belief in God a delusion. In talking about atheism, in his book he gives a 7 point scale from 100% probability of god 'I do not believe, I know', to the strong atheist at the other side. He sits, as do the vast majority of atheist in one just before that...'very low probability, short short of zero. What he calls a 'de facto atheist'. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there'. Id argue that most atheists come into this category, as opposed the extreme one, where as compared to religion where many believers would put themselves int he 100% category. Yet we are the ones who have to open our minds.

The whole 'where does life come from' debate isn't helped by religion either unless you contradict yourself. Science does make some claims. Ive read Hawkings and admittedly i find it hard going (something along the lines of time coming into existence with the big bang). However, adding an all powerful, all seeing, all knowing god into the mix, just pushes the chicken or the egg question further back. How on earth did god come to exist. The theist will argue he has always existed, at which point he contradicts himself.

The whole open mind argument is poor too. Especially as its usually thrown as a last resort towards atheists. Id argue the religious are far more closed minded as they follow a written in stone dogma that can never change, and often argue against proven science. Believing in things that can be proven is not being closed minded. If I had cancer I would take medication and has chemotherapy, because thats the proven method of getting better. i wouldnt choose prayer, laying on of hands, homeopathy or any other alternative medicine. This isn't being closed minded, its being rational and sensible.

[Andyregs]

If a Christian chooses not to believe in Allah but cannot prove He doesn't exist, are they being irrational?

 

Obviously not because they know deep down that he doesn't exist. Everyone else just needs to be more open minded.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Wellllll..the theory is that God has always existed so he existed before there was anyone to believe in him

 

The tree falling thing...no no one hears it. As to whether it makes a sound..depends on what sound is. is it vibrations in an elastic medium in which case yes it does make a sound or is it how the ear/brain interprest those vibrations which turns mere vibrations in the air into sound in which case no. I go with the former..there is a sound but no one to hear it.

 

If two people are standing near the tree and one is deaf will the deaf one tell the one who can hear that there was no sound or just that he could not hear it?

[Trampilot]

Wellllll..the theory is that God has always existed so he existed before there was anyone to believe in him

 

The tree falling thing...no no one hears it. As to whether it makes a sound..depends on what sound is. is it vibrations in an elastic medium in which case yes it does make a sound or is it how the ear/brain interprest those vibrations which turns mere vibrations in the air into sound in which case no. I go with the former..there is a sound but no one to hear it.

 

If two people are standing near the tree and one is deaf will the deaf one tell the one who can hear that there was no sound or just that he could not hear it?

 

Splendid. Did God therefore create the world/universe in order to prove/certify his own existence? Maybe God was questioning his own existence and needed to create something that would revere/fear him in order to stop God from going doolally from loneliness and self-doubt.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

What people don't get...is what you just made up?

 

I don't know about it so i'll dismiss it..deja vu

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Splendid. Did God therefore create the world/universe in order to prove/certify his own existence?

 

I have no idea..I don't claim to know Gods' purpose but I am open to people trying to explain it and relate events etc to it

 

Maybe God was questioning his own existence and needed to create something that would revere/fear him in order to stop God from going doolally from loneliness and self-doubt.

 

Could be. Could be that as a God none of that applies to him. Maybe he crated it cos he went doolally and all this is just a symptom of his insanity

[Andyregs]

I don't know about it so i'll dismiss it..deja vu

 

What don't I know?

 

Ive answered every counter claim made. Yet all i get back is 'I don't get it'.

[Andyregs]

Is not believing in god, yet arguing against people who hold the same beliefs as you, whilst never questioning those who believe in something you don't, irrational?