Saudi stampede

[Bea Smith]

And you've conveniently forgot the UK.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately for you and your credibility, I was quoting word for word directly from the link that YOU provided in YOUR previous post - whether it is a correct list or not, it was YOUR list, at least in that YOU provided the link to it.

 

And I am the insane one according to your post - honey, save your playground insults, you are not even very good at those either. Isn't it time to watch a mass shooting at a school or mall and a policeman shooting an unarmed black kid on your news for you before your double cheeseburger and coke washed down with a few pharmaceuticals ?

 

There is nothing wrong with the USA and most of the people in it - just ones like you and the ones you support from big business, military/industrial and corrupt right wing political leaders who manipulate and control things - in that respect very similar to Saudi Arabia that you keep in power to subjugate their fellow Arabs.

[Paul6754]

Unfortunately for you and your credibility, I was quoting word for word directly from the link that YOU provided in YOUR previous post - whether it is a correct list or not, it was YOUR list, at least in that YOU provided the link to it.

 

And I am the insane one according to your post - honey, save your playground insults, you are not even very good at those either. Isn't it time to watch a mass shooting at a school or mall and a policeman shooting an unarmed black kid on your news for you before your double cheeseburger and coke washed down with a few pharmaceuticals ?

 

There is nothing wrong with the USA and most of the people in it - just ones like you and the ones you support from big business, military/industrial and corrupt right wing political leaders who manipulate and control things - in that respect very similar to Saudi Arabia that you keep in power to subjugate their fellow Arabs.

 

Just scroll down a little you'll see the UK listed. Just making the point that other countries have history they aren't proud of but you don't appear to grasp the point

 

You quote, "There is nothing wrong with the USA and most of the people in it" so why this bizarre hatred of everything USA, just barking.

 

I won't comment on the issues you bring up in the second paragraph only to say you should think of events past in the UK and consider that the UK isn't immune from such terrible atrocities but I guess you conveniently forget those to.

 

Of course I support big and small business, they provides jobs and wealth around the world. It might have passed you by but the current leader of the USA is a democrat (labour in UK speak), a decent man with good intentions.

 

Your comment about SA is pure fantasy and ludicrous, go and talk to Arab people, they will explain the issues.

 

You should try a double cheeseburger made from USDA beef in the USA, absolutely delicious (not British beef which may or may not be infected with BSE). I'd wash it down with a Yuengaling or Sam but must admit I'd prefer a glass of cask Bass or Batemans XB but can't get either here.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

And you've conveniently forgot the UK.

 

From the link you gave..seems we are very much part of such exalted company. Few are as foolish looking as the blinkered

 

United Kingdom

 

De-classified documents of the National Archives revealed that during the 1930s and 1940s, the British Army used hundreds of Irish and native British Indian Army soldiers as "guinea pigs" in their experiments to determine if mustard gas inflicted greater damage on Indian skin compared to British skin. It is unclear whether the trial subjects, some of whom were hospitalised by their injuries, were all volunteers.[43]

 

In the United Kingdom, voluntary human experimentation conducted in a negligent and unethical manner at Porton Down in the 1950s caused the unlawful death of Ronald Maddison.[44][45]

 

Beecher Paper[edit]

 

In a 1966 paper noted British anesthesiologist Henry K. Beecher described 22 published medical studies in which patients had been subjects with no expected benefit to the patient of the experiment.[46] This has been characterized as unethical. For example, patients infused with live cancer cells had been told in one study that they were receiving "some cells," without being told this was cancer. Though identities of the authors and institutions had been stripped, the 22 studies were later identified as having been conducted by mainstream researchers and published in prestigious journals within approximately the previous decade. The 22 cases had been selected from a set of 50 that Beecher had collected. He presented evidence that such unethical studies were widespread and represented a systemic problem in medical research rather than exceptions.[46][47]

 

Beecher had been writing about human experimentation and publicizing cases that he considered to be bad practice for nearly a decade. His 1965 briefing to science writers and his 1966 paper gained widespread news coverage and stimulated public reaction.[47][48] The paper has been described as "the most influential single paper ever written about experimentation involving human subjects."[49] The United States Office for Human Research Protections credits Beecher through this paper as "ultimately contributing to the impetus for the first NIH and FDA regulations."[50]

 

Beecher was instrumental in developing solutions to such abuses. He noted that a common element in these studies was that some experimental subjects, such as military personnel or mentally handicapped children in institutions, were not in a position to freely decline consent.[47] Beecher believed that rules requiring informed consent were not alone sufficient, as truly informed consent was an unattainable ideal. He worked both to define the rules and conditions for informed consent, and to establish institutional review boards as an additional layer of oversight regarding research protocols.[47][48]

[JOHNNYAITCH]

but the fact that there were far too many pilgrims in a far too small a place is patently obvious.

 

Yep and SA has no power nor right (nor possibly desire) to stop those that want to go there as it's a religious calling/duty/necessity....it's just idiotic to compare it to a football match or new year celebrations and shows no understanding of what the Hajj means to these people. What next "Get your Hajj tickets at Ticketmaster.com whilst stocks last. Sorry if we sell out and this means your soul is damned for eternity and you can't fulfil a fundamental calling of your religion but we have to comply with our safety certificate and as usual we westerners know best."

[Bea Smith]

Yep and SA has no power nor right (nor possibly desire) to stop those that want to go there as it's a religious calling/duty/necessity....it's just idiotic to compare it to a football match or new year celebrations and shows no understanding of what the Hajj means to these people. What next "Get your Hajj tickets at Ticketmaster.com whilst stocks last. Sorry if we sell out and this means your soul is damned for eternity and you can't fulfil a fundamental calling of your religion but we have to comply with our safety certificate and as usual we westerners know best."

 

It is clearly untrue that Saudi has not got the power to stop, limit or control the numbers of people attending this event - whether it has the desire is another matter. It can easily limit the number of flights arriving, and take multiple and various other actions as you well know. So save the 'idiotic' stuff for the playground.

 

When will you learn that your continued tactic of referring to an opinion you disagree with as 'idiotic' or 'ridiculous' carries no weight without a reasonable argument behind it. Neither you, I or any other individual on here can dictate what is idiotic or ridiculous. You present no valid reasoning to back up your bile.

 

I, and many others I have spoken to, can see that comparing this to other disasters which happened on a smaller scale but were devastating nonetheless, be it football matches or whatever else, is perfectly in order. This is just as valid an argument as yours, and has no hidden motive like your own.

 

Your continued failure to treat these poor souls as being similar to others going to a special event, whether it would be Jews going to Jerusalem, football fans going to Hillsborough or people celebrating New Year (where there was a tragedy in China only this last new year) - in every case the organisers have a care of duty and a responsibility towards their visitors.

 

Or are you of the opinion that these people were like your 'catttleload of Syrian refugees' you referred to in your disgusting collective nouns thread that was shut down.

 

Others have said in the past that you use threads and posts like this one just to boost your own vain ego and enjoy the bickering, and I thought that was a bit harsh before, now it is clear they were right.

[Bea Smith]

You should try a double cheeseburger made from USDA beef in the USA, absolutely delicious (not British beef which may or may not be infected with BSE). I'd wash it down with a Yuengaling or Sam but must admit I'd prefer a glass of cask Bass or Batemans XB but can't get either here.

 

I don't eat burgers, just decent meat. But trying to justify the US food as better is not going to be easy, as the FDA, that's the US Food and Drug people for anyone interested, will allow just about anything that a bribe will buy.

The US has fluoride in its water in most places, something only a tiny number in the UK have to suffer and virtually nobody else will allow this dangerous substance, and look at this link to see just a few of the additives and horrific chemicals allowed in the US that the EU,China, and most other countries ban.

Then there is your GMO food that Monsanto is desperate to force on Europe, banned so far here but gobbled up in earnest by most americans, some however in the States are beginning to fight back and God bless them against this monstrosity of a company. Plus your water supply is suspect and has been damaged by fracking in some areas, and huge chemical and industrial spills in others.

 

Read and learn whilst eating your GMO mulch-burger

 

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/banned-europe-safe-us

 

a small example, very typical because profit comes before health for the US companies and some of their corrupt officials -

 

Use of lead-based interior paints was banned in France, Belgium and Austria in 1909. Much of Europe followed suit before 1940. It took the U.S. until 1978 to make this move, even though health experts had, for decades, recognized the potentially acute — even deadly — and irreversible hazards of lead exposure.

 

and this - Ingredient: Azodicarbonamide

Found in: Breads, frozen dinners, boxed pasta mixes, and packaged baked goods

Why the U.S. allows it: While most countries wait a week for flour to naturally whiten, the American food processors prefer to use this chemical to bleach the flour ASAP.

Health hazards: It's not enough to just ban this product in Singapore. You can get up to 15 years in prison and be penalized nearly half a million dollars in fines for using this chemical that's been linked to asthma and is primarily used in foamed plastics, like yoga mats and sneaker soles.

 

or this -

 

Ingredients: BHA and BHT

Found in: Cereal, nut mixes, gum, butter, meat, dehydrated potatoes, and beer

Why the U.S. allows it: “Made from petroleum [yummy!], these waxy solids act as preservatives to prevent food from becoming rancid and developing objectionable odors,” Calton says. A better solution may be natural rosemary and sage. In a 2006 study, some organic herbs and spices proved to be efficient at preventing oxidative decay in meat, which ultimately could improve the shelf-life of these products.

Health hazards: California is the only state that recognizes the U.S. National Institute of Health's report that BHA is may be a human carcinogen, a cancer-causing agent.

 

 

dozens of other examples available for those with open minds who care to research - you really picked a bad subject to take on here my friend.

 

But carry on eating what you think best, I just feel very sorry for the poor people there who have to go to massive lengths not to be slowly poisoned.

[Paul6754]

Fluoride isn't a substance per se it's a negatively charged species called an anion usually found paired with a cation eg the sodium cation, so for example sodium fluoride is a substance. Every substance at some point is toxic to humans, animals, cells etc, its just a matter of dose, some substances have a larger therapeutic window than others. It's just not sensible picking out at random a chemical compound and saying it's toxic 'cause they're all toxic at some dose.

 

Life and all living things are a result of chemical interactions and reactions, the bottom line is we're all chemical factories. There are many chemical substances essential to life made in the body and whose location and movement around the body are tightly controlled because they're extremely toxic, eg the stomach contains hydrochloric acid at pH 1 essential to the initial digestion of food, if you drank hydrochloric acid it would be a very unpleasant experience and would more than likely result in death depending on how much was drank.

 

I'm not trying to justify that US food is better, your comments in the above and earlier posts about food in the US (about chlorine??) show a lack of understanding. The FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration and is one of the most important US government departments throughout the world, it works in close collaboration with the CSM based in the UK. Any drug sold in the USA wherever it is researched, developed or manufactured has to meet the most stringent FDA set criteria for safety and quality and its staff have the power to inspect facilities unannounced and remove from the USA market any drug that doesn't comply with its regulations. The UK drug firm Fisons was effectively closed down in the 80's because two of its drugs were removed from the US market after violating good manufacturing practices. The quality of food in the US is also tightly regulated by the same thorough processes.

 

I have much experience of handling Azodicarbonamide and its esters. If found in food it will be in extremely minute amounts, hardly traceable, and when/if ingested would be quickly broken down by hydrochloric acid in the stomach, if there was any issue at all the FDA would absolutely ban any food containing it.

 

You should try a burger especially a homemade one and wash it down with a nice Californian cab or merlot if beer is not to your taste, you don't know what your missing. If you wish to debate GMO food then start a thread but look at all sides of the equation before making up your mind, safety, financial and the starving people around the world etc, etc not just the message put out by people and countries with their own agendas such as the not invented here syndrome of the Germans and French.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I eat burgers but only bought form one of our local butchers where we know the provenance and as far as I am aware they are from nwhat i'll call ethical farms and made on the premises..same for all their pies, sausages, bacon etc

 

I remember that McDonalds etc are delicious but to be honest I've moved away from mass-produced meat products over the past few years; not specifically burgers. I'd rather go without meat these days than not know something about where it came from. It's more expensive and so not everyone can afford it but as I said, I'd rather go without.

 

Even the pub across the road which does a spectacular carvery details where it gets it's meats and fish from.

 

But each to their own

[Paul6754]

We only eat burgers now and again and the wife usually makes them, add herbs and spices eg corianda and grill them, they are delicious and a quick meal, she uses the same beef we would use to make a chilli or a spag. bog. I find the older I get the less meat I eat, I find steak a little bland and much prefer lamb. We eat more fish, shrimp, beans eg red/black/kidney beans, peppers, quacamole and salsa etc these days.

[Bea Smith]

Fluoride isn't a substance per se it's a negatively charged species called an anion usually found paired with a cation eg the sodium cation, so for example sodium fluoride is a substance. Every substance at some point is toxic to humans, animals, cells etc, its just a matter of dose, some substances have a larger therapeutic window than others. It's just not sensible picking out at random a chemical compound and saying it's toxic 'cause they're all toxic at some dose.

 

Life and all living things are a result of chemical interactions and reactions, the bottom line is we're all chemical factories. There are many chemical substances essential to life made in the body and whose location and movement around the body are tightly controlled because they're extremely toxic, eg the stomach contains hydrochloric acid at pH 1 essential to the initial digestion of food, if you drank hydrochloric acid it would be a very unpleasant experience and would more than likely result in death depending on how much was drank.

 

I'm not trying to justify that US food is better, your comments in the above and earlier posts about food in the US (about chlorine??) show a lack of understanding. The FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration and is one of the most important US government departments throughout the world, it works in close collaboration with the CSM based in the UK. Any drug sold in the USA wherever it is researched, developed or manufactured has to meet the most stringent FDA set criteria for safety and quality and its staff have the power to inspect facilities unannounced and remove from the USA market any drug that doesn't comply with its regulations. The UK drug firm Fisons was effectively closed down in the 80's because two of its drugs were removed from the US market after violating good manufacturing practices. The quality of food in the US is also tightly regulated by the same thorough processes.

 

I have much experience of handling Azodicarbonamide and its esters. If found in food it will be in extremely minute amounts, hardly traceable, and when/if ingested would be quickly broken down by hydrochloric acid in the stomach, if there was any issue at all the FDA would absolutely ban any food containing it.

 

You should try a burger especially a homemade one and wash it down with a nice Californian cab or merlot if beer is not to your taste, you don't know what your missing. If you wish to debate GMO food then start a thread but look at all sides of the equation before making up your mind, safety, financial and the starving people around the world etc, etc not just the message put out by people and countries with their own agendas such as the not invented here syndrome of the Germans and French.

 

Thank you for a civil reply. I really don't think that it matters whether I refer to fluoride as sodium fluoride and your opening remarks are a little strange to me. Saying all substances can be toxic in large enough doses is a little bit of an obvious truth, it still doesn't mean some should be avoided. A little plutonium anyone ?

 

The main question is why the FDA wants to remove the choice from US citizens with both fluoride and the many additivesas well as GMO - what makes the EU countries and many others think these things are dangerous. The EU is just as profit driven one might say, so there must be other reasons - better to err on the side of caution but you and I will never agree on this.

 

When people don't agree, they should be able to choose - and that's all I want, the choice of not eating these substances and putting myself at risk. Monsanto and the US authorities are trying to remove that choice.

 

Enjoy your burger - I'll have a nice real ale or glass of red with my grass-fed meat - again I want to be able to choose not to have meat from animals pumped full of hormones and artificial chemicals, or chicken that is chlorinated which is banned here.

 

Although it might be interesting to start a thread on GMO, I have some other priorities right now, and don't see you or I convincing each other - but I don't want to change your mind if you are sure - I do demand the choice of whether to eat these GMO foods or not though, that is the crux of it.

[Paul6754]

Thank you for a civil reply. I really don't think that it matters whether I refer to fluoride as sodium fluoride and your opening remarks are a little strange to me.

 

If you cut and paste from the internet you should have at least a little knowledge about the subject/material you're posting and again in this case it's obvious you do not. I hope you understand why chicken is washed with water treated with minute quantities of chlorine and why even drinking water in the UK is treated similarly.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

We only eat burgers now and again and the wife usually makes them, add herbs and spices eg corianda and grill them, they are delicious and a quick meal, she uses the same beef we would use to make a chilli or a spag. bog. I find the older I get the less meat I eat, I find steak a little bland and much prefer lamb. We eat more fish, shrimp, beans eg red/black/kidney beans, peppers, quacamole and salsa etc these days.

 

I'm moving in the same direction :) 'softer' foods as I get older :(

[Bea Smith]

If you cut and paste from the internet you should have at least a little knowledge about the subject/material you're posting and again in this case it's obvious you do not. I hope you understand why chicken is washed with water treated with minute quantities of chlorine and why even drinking water in the UK is treated similarly.

 

 

Well being civil didn't last long, but play it your way doombrain. Links to the internet at sites like your nbc news are fine, I'm not wasting time sub-editing if someone has a reasonable précis of what I want to say.

 

And please tell me your nonsense about 'all substances are toxic to some extent' was cut and pasted from some ill-informed site you fester at, as if you wrote it you should be seriously worried.

 

It seems you post pseudo-scientific junk to try and lay the groundwork for impressing people that you know what you are talking about - well, you may have the technical details labelled correctly, but your reasoning is totally bizarre and demented.

 

Check the concentrations of chlorine in your chicken washes and in uk drinking water, rather than trying to mislead people that it is the same. You'll be quoting that there is arsenic in apple pips next, which there is but it makes no difference because of the quantity and form of it. Like another regular poster, you aim to distort, manipulate and mislead people on here and it has been exposed.

 

Finally, for all the good it is, there have been multiple cases of chicken-related poisoning in the US recently, not so here, chlorine is dangerous at the levels used and worse than useless if other measures are not controlled.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

If you cut and paste from the internet you should have at least a little knowledge about the subject/material you're posting and again in this case it's obvious you do not. I hope you understand why chicken is washed with water treated with minute quantities of chlorine and why even drinking water in the UK is treated similarly.

 

I don't suppose you have the figures re the amount of chlorine in the 'chicken wash' and drinking water? This is actually getting quite interesting

[Paul6754]

From memory in drinking water it's something like half a part per million (At a swimming baths it's something like ca 3-5 parts/million) so very minute quantities. There are risks associated with everything and the choice with water is a minute amount of "chlorine" to enable tap water to be drank or don't treat it and run the risk of more bacteria in the water making tap water more dangerous. Tap water is taken from reservoirs etc and passes through pipes etc and gets contaminated by all types of micro organisms that can cause dysentry etc. The same with poultry, a quick wash with water treated with minute quantities of chlorine kills much Salmonella rendering the poultry safer to handle.

 

I agree with Bea's position saying there should be more accurate labeling of food but costs, accuracy and scaremongering etc all play into this. I recently went to Mexico where it's recommended not to drink the tap water and although very careful I still got a dodgy tummy for a day, just brushing your teeth becomes a "major" event and you wonder what water was used to make the ice in your drink, was it bottled or tap.

 

Way off topic here...