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The Future?


Andyregs

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Whenever we have had bids for the club or interest in takeovers, I always hear the same thing. 'The most important thing is to leave all the footballing decisions to the manager'. But is that the right way forward. Managers these days are lucky to spend more than 3 years at one club. How is that going to allow a club to build for the future?

When Mike Newton was interested, he suggested improving the youth set up and separating it from the first team management team to ensure stability. People were up in arms over this, as were adams and grew. A few months later adams left for sheff utd and a new manager with totally different ideas came in. Any manager in league 2 is going to have to, at times, scrap his way out of the league. Some will be successful, some will end up on the managerial scrap heap. Is this the best education for players like morsy, lloyd, davis and the young players now in the youth set up?

If we look at Swansea, and how succesful they have been. 20 Years ago they were at risk of going out of the football league. Now they have a great stadium, great facilities and are playing good football in the top league. Now I know other things play a part, but hasn't their recent success been partly due to consistency. They know what kind of football they want to play, and what kind of club they want. And they have appointed managers to fit in with where they want to club to go, not go where the manager dictates they do. Martinez was replaced by rogers who was then replaced by Laudrup. Crewe are an example at a smaller scale. Davis was appointed because he would continue with the way crewe do things. Yes they are only in league 1, but financially are secure. They tried appointing someone who was totally alien to their club ethos (thordson) and it was a disaster (and they ended up losing some good prospects due to it).

I fully expect some to have a go, and think Im suggesting things Im not. This isnt a 'sack the manager' post. Its an attempt to discuss the future, now we have what seems like at least medium term stability, where we want the club to go. Yes the manager should be picking the team, and deciding transfers. But in most other succesful industries, the manager doesn't dictate to the board of directors the direction the company product goes. If we want to improve our youth system, like has been suggested, then that needs to be a vision beyond the current manager, otherwise it will never attract the quality we need.

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The Smurf/Wilde vision is a club based on youth developement, similar to Crewe. In the meantime facilities have to be better used to grow the business, academy established, etc. But as you say we need to be in L1 to educate and develop players properly. This will take a few years, and in the meantime we need to get out of L2 as soon as possible, if Adams can achieve promotion all well and good. Once in L1 we should aim for the attacking style of football we had earlier in the season, was that due to Page`s influence or not? Will we be able to keep him? I think short term things will become clearer in January, bu twe may have to wait for the close season for more developements.

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Whenever we have had bids for the club or interest in takeovers, I always hear the same thing. 'The most important thing is to leave all the footballing decisions to the manager'. But is that the right way forward. Managers these days are lucky to spend more than 3 years at one club. How is that going to allow a club to build for the future?

When Mike Newton was interested, he suggested improving the youth set up and separating it from the first team management team to ensure stability. People were up in arms over this, as were adams and grew. A few months later adams left for sheff utd and a new manager with totally different ideas came in. Any manager in league 2 is going to have to, at times, scrap his way out of the league. Some will be successful, some will end up on the managerial scrap heap. Is this the best education for players like morsy, lloyd, davis and the young players now in the youth set up?

If we look at Swansea, and how succesful they have been. 20 Years ago they were at risk of going out of the football league. Now they have a great stadium, great facilities and are playing good football in the top league. Now I know other things play a part, but hasn't their recent success been partly due to consistency. They know what kind of football they want to play, and what kind of club they want. And they have appointed managers to fit in with where they want to club to go, not go where the manager dictates they do. Martinez was replaced by rogers who was then replaced by Laudrup. Crewe are an example at a smaller scale. Davis was appointed because he would continue with the way crewe do things. Yes they are only in league 1, but financially are secure. They tried appointing someone who was totally alien to their club ethos (thordson) and it was a disaster (and they ended up losing some good prospects due to it).

I fully expect some to have a go, and think Im suggesting things Im not. This isnt a 'sack the manager' post. Its an attempt to discuss the future, now we have what seems like at least medium term stability, where we want the club to go. Yes the manager should be picking the team, and deciding transfers. But in most other succesful industries, the manager doesn't dictate to the board of directors the direction the company product goes. If we want to improve our youth system, like has been suggested, then that needs to be a vision beyond the current manager, otherwise it will never attract the quality we need.

 

 

But the world is going to end on 21st Dec.(apparently)

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After 2 weeks in charge you surely would not expect the owners to start dictating football matters as they have no experience is this area

 

Didn't say they should. But I would expect them over the course of the next 12 months to be developing a vision for the future. That vision will be easier to implement if we go up this year, and we saw with gannon how changing too quickly can be a disaster. But as I also said, changing as we move every few years as we change from manager to manager is also not the answer. We have stability for the first time in years, so it's a relevant discussion to have now, if not right to expects immediate changes.

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Im not sure on all this Crewe talk. We will never get the talent or setup that Crewe have. That has come from many years of investment in that side of the club. The reputation they have will ensure that talent would choose Crewe over Vale or Stoke any day. Crewe have proved this already as Stoke will tell you.

 

I agree that the future isnt paying massive wages to players who come and go. The problem is that most young players tend not to cut the mustard and take time to develop. The average vale fan would not accept this and attendances would drop very quickly. Then you have to become like Crewe selling talent to make up for the short fall.

 

Im not sure Micky has the right idea trying to sign players like Hughes. Im sure that he could get better younger talent from the Premier League / Championship clubs and if not, why not give our youth a run out? Nick Powell had to start somewhere and wouldn't be where he is today if no one had given him this chance.

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Im not sure on all this Crewe talk. We will never get the talent or setup that Crewe have. That has come from many years of investment in that side of the club. The reputation they have will ensure that talent would choose Crewe over Vale or Stoke any day. Crewe have proved this already as Stoke will tell you.

 

I agree that the future isnt paying massive wages to players who come and go. The problem is that most young players tend not to cut the mustard and take time to develop. The average vale fan would not accept this and attendances would drop very quickly. Then you have to become like Crewe selling talent to make up for the short fall.

 

Im not sure Micky has the right idea trying to sign players like Hughes. Im sure that he could get better younger talent from the Premier League / Championship clubs and if not, why not give our youth a run out? Nick Powell had to start somewhere and wouldn't be where he is today if no one had given him this chance.

 

I'm not suggesting we do what Crewe do. I agree that they are unique because they were ahead of the game and it took 20 years to get there, with hard work, vision and a little luck. Though our youth system and transition process needs to be improved. The point I'm making though, is that e direction of the club doesn't necessarily have to come from the manager (unless we appoint a Rudge, gradi, ferguson).

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Im not sure on all this Crewe talk. We will never get the talent or setup that Crewe have. That has come from many years of investment in that side of the club. The reputation they have will ensure that talent would choose Crewe over Vale or Stoke any day. Crewe have proved this already as Stoke will tell you.

 

I agree that the future isnt paying massive wages to players who come and go. The problem is that most young players tend not to cut the mustard and take time to develop. The average vale fan would not accept this and attendances would drop very quickly. Then you have to become like Crewe selling talent to make up for the short fall.

 

Im not sure Micky has the right idea trying to sign players like Hughes. Im sure that he could get better younger talent from the Premier League / Championship clubs and if not, why not give our youth a run out? Nick Powell had to start somewhere and wouldn't be where he is today if no one had given him this chance.

 

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with the sentiment that we'll NEVER have the same set up as Crewe. With enough investment we could easily surpass what they've got, its only taken them so long becuase they've never had the money to do it all in one go, they've had to build there fort over time if you like. In terms of facilities barring indoor pitches I don't think we're that far adrift of them at the moment to be honest. In terms of stadium facilities I'd say were already by far superior. Given the investment in facilities we could easily assertain the same talent levels as Crewe also.

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I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with the sentiment that we'll NEVER have the same set up as Crewe. With enough investment we could easily surpass what they've got, its only taken them so long becuase they've never had the money to do it all in one go, they've had to build there fort over time if you like. In terms of facilities barring indoor pitches I don't think we're that far adrift of them at the moment to be honest. In terms of stadium facilities I'd say were already by far superior. Given the investment in facilities we could easily assertain the same talent levels as Crewe also.

 

The elite player thing makes it a lot harder. It's not just about facilities either. It's about relationships with parents, players etc. the board, managers, first team and fans all buying into it. Reputation. Giving players a chance early, etc. not impossible, but a big ask. First job is to make a good set up, if that's the vision for the future. Maybe we build the club on bringing the best of those players who drop out of premier youth set ups. Players who have received top coaching, and then focussing on how we transition them to first team football. There isn't only one right way to do things, but we should have a plan of how we are going to do it.

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The elite player thing makes it a lot harder. It's not just about facilities either. It's about relationships with parents, players etc. the board, managers, first team and fans all buying into it. Reputation. Giving players a chance early, etc. not impossible, but a big ask. First job is to make a good set up, if that's the vision for the future. Maybe we build the club on bringing the best of those players who drop out of premier youth set ups. Players who have received top coaching, and then focussing on how we transition them to first team football. There isn't only one right way to do things, but we should have a plan of how we are going to do it.

 

Mmm true, some good points there, this is why the strategy of Smurf and Wildes to make this the community club of Stoke could be a pivitol one in the way in which they want to run it in the future. The way I see it though if Crewe can do it then there is no reason why we (historically a bigger and more historic club) can't, I've always believed that we could (over time) take what Crewe do and make it bigger and better, this has always been a source of frustration for me, especially with the old board. The key to Dario's decision to adopt the strategy he did in the 80's was Crewe's central location. Well were even more central in a much more widely known area, in a relatively large area, with close links to places such as Derby, Leicester, Birmingham etc... why do you think the FA built the new England training centre in Staffordshire. Don't get me wrong despite of my sometimes anti-Crewe sentiments I do really repsect Dario Gradi (never sing the paedophile songs) for what he did at (at the time) one of the smallest clubs in the league, taking them into the second tier just based on youth development and would love to see a similar model at Vale on a larger scale.

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From what I read in the Sentinel about the fans forum meeting thing, the same problem exists that probably always will, the two new owners seemed a bit pre-occupied in talking about us than the Vale. Now I know not everything will go into the Sentinel but we shouldn't have even been mentioned.

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From what I read in the Sentinel about the fans forum meeting thing, the same problem exists that probably always will, the two new owners seemed a bit pre-occupied in talking about us than the Vale. Now I know not everything will go into the Sentinel but we shouldn't have even been mentioned.

 

Think its just the usual footy banter though mate, watched the Ole Gunnar Solksjaer interview yesterday and he mentioned City several times. Wildes even mention Crewe several times and how he was looking to base our youth development system on them etc...

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Think its just the usual footy banter though mate, watched the Ole Gunnar Solksjaer interview yesterday and he mentioned City several times. Wildes even mention Crewe several times and how he was looking to base our youth development system on them etc...

 

Maybe so but it just seems to me that most connected with Vale seem to care more about us than Yourselves. And I'm guessing Solksjaer was interviewed especially because it was the Manc derby?

 

I can see why he'd mention Crewe tbh, it's a club that all lower league clubs should aspire to be like. And in the youth department, I wish we'd develop more talent like them. On the academy side, that's the only bit that we're behind them with still imo. In real terms with the new EPPP I really don't think You or Crewe can compete with us at any level. Well You shouldn't be able to anyway. And that may sound cocky and arrogant but that's how it's designed (and is why I don't like it). With the category one status we basically have free reign and if we do it right (which is where the doubt is) then there's no competition.

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Maybe so but it just seems to me that most connected with Vale seem to care more about us than Yourselves. And I'm guessing Solksjaer was interviewed especially because it was the Manc derby?

 

I can see why he'd mention Crewe tbh, it's a club that all lower league clubs should aspire to be like. And in the youth department, I wish we'd develop more talent like them. On the academy side, that's the only bit that we're behind them with still imo. In real terms with the new EPPP I really don't think You or Crewe can compete with us at any level. Well You shouldn't be able to anyway. And that may sound cocky and arrogant but that's how it's designed (and is why I don't like it). With the category one status we basically have free reign and if we do it right (which is where the doubt is) then there's no competition.

 

Yeah true unfortunately that does seem to be the way its going concerning Premier league clubs but it would be nice to overtake league 1 and some Championship clubs within the next 5 years, yesterday showed how in the last 5-10 years we haven't even been able to compete with smaller clubs like Chesterfield, embarrasing really. But you never know for all we know Vale could be on a par or even above Stoke in ten years time, who would have foreseen these cirumstances in the 90s or Swansea's progress as recently as 2004-05. Vale are finally moving forward and Wildes knows a lot of very wealthy people. I seriously think the Vale will be back in the Championship by the end of this current decade.

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I wonder if the medium term plan (10years) should be to scout and develop the young talent that don't quite make the grade in the premiership? People moan the foreign talent doesn't give young Brits a chance. Perhaps this is the future role. Get a reputation for picking these players up and developing them in the same way Crewe do with the younger players. They will have had top coaching and education behind them, and it should be cheaper than developing players from a younger age. It would also be a bit unique in the way Crewe were 20 years ago?

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Yeah true unfortunately that does seem to be the way its going concerning Premier league clubs but it would be nice to overtake league 1 and some Championship clubs within the next 5 years, yesterday showed how in the last 5-10 years we haven't even been able to compete with smaller clubs like Chesterfield, embarrasing really. But you never know for all we know Vale could be on a par or even above Stoke in ten years time, who would have foreseen these cirumstances in the 90s or Swansea's progress as recently as 2004-05. Vale are finally moving forward and Wildes knows a lot of very wealthy people. I seriously think the Vale will be back in the Championship by the end of this current decade.

 

 

 

This is the mentality I don't get. Barring a few years in the nineties when have the Vale been better than us? And that was only down to league position. In every respect we're the bigger club and barring something of a complete financial meltdown we alway will be irrespective of what division You're in. That's why I don't get why we were mentioned. But it is a good soundbite to Vale fans who think that way, playing the crowd as it were.

 

I don't know where You'll be, I see You as a lower league one club, flirting with promotion and relegation depending on how it goes.

 

I still think in time we'll be a Championship club with the same game of ups and downs.

 

And Crewe as an upper league 2 side.

 

That's what I'd group us in anyway historically and with a nod to the future.

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I wonder if the medium term plan (10years) should be to scout and develop the young talent that don't quite make the grade in the premiership? People moan the foreign talent doesn't give young Brits a chance. Perhaps this is the future role. Get a reputation for picking these players up and developing them in the same way Crewe do with the younger players. They will have had top coaching and education behind them, and it should be cheaper than developing players from a younger age. It would also be a bit unique in the way Crewe were 20 years ago?

 

Yeah these are exactly the sort of lines we should be thinking along

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