JoeB2

We are basically entirely dependent on Carol’s goodwill. Something for us to reflect on - I’ll definitely be keeping it in mind when I air my frustrations.

Confirmation for those who are refusing to accept it - the Shanahans have been loaning us 65k a week to keep us alive.

There is a tiny proportion of the debt owed to Barclays. The vast, vast majority of the debt is owed to companies owned by the Shanahans (8.5m worth), interest free, which she’ll never recoup. Without these loans the club goes under. If we do go under, she loses the money she paid for the club (5m) and the money she’s loaned us since. It’s really hard to grasp why you’re so insistent on downplaying how grateful we should be to her.

I just think she put too much faith in a DoF who was blagging it. I don’t think her community work has has much to do with the poor on-pitch performance. I certainly wouldn’t want her to stop because of some tenuous link to Ryan Loft’s inability to score.

120k worth? She’s lent us 8.5m interest free ffs

Covered by interest free loans from Carol! 8.5m worth of them.

The debt is mostly interest-free to Carol! We have a bank loan of 5 grand ffs. Why are we making up that we’re in interest-charged debt to banks. Absolute nonsense. Port Vale FC is, like 89/92 football teams, an insolvent company reliant on the goodwill of an owner to write off losses via directors loans.

We owe 8.5m, interest free, to either parent companies (Synsol Holdings) or companies under common control (Synectics, I imagine). I’ve got no idea where you’ve plucked this concept that Carol is borrowing millions from the bank against the club and charging interest. The loans are money owed to Carol’s businesses, which she is well aware she is unlikely to see repaid.

What did you think covered the £3.4m loss? What on Earth are you going on about?

It would take a decade to get the model of Peterborough. They’ve been doing it nearly 20 years - remember George Boyd, Aaron McClean, and Craig Mackail-Smith? We have to face facts as a football club that, with our attendances and revenue, we are unlikely to consistently challenge at the top end of League 1 unless someone is daft enough to spend 4-5m more a year than we make, without any guarantee of success. It’s even less unlikely when more loss is incurred via infrastructural investment instead of the first-team budget. It’s sad, it’s depressing, but it’s football. Our long-term future is guaranteed under Carol and this season need only be a step back after several steps forward. Whether we’re in League 1 or 2, I imagine she’s learned a lot.

Carol knows she’s never seeing that money again.

My view too. We are so far inferior to Posh that it’s embarrassing. If that shot doesn’t double-deflect in half-time, we go in 0-0 and it’s completely different. Sometimes things go against you. I have found it startling to see the players accused of bottling it, cowardice etc. I thought they all worked pretty hard. They just aren’t very good!

They’re operating in a completely different financial climate. Folk comparing the club’s losses under her with Smurthwaite’s, when the financial landscape of football has shifted so drastically in the last 12 years. Club’s have to lose over a million to survive, and several million to compete in League One. We simply can’t overlook that. I’d much rather have Carol making mistakes and dutifully plugging the shortfall with good intentions, than I would a hedge fund on a leveraged buyout who would scarper when the losses exceeded a certain threshold.

There’s obviously been a litany of mistakes, but if we do survive, Carol is going to have to spend 1-2m again next year just to keep the club with a fighting chance of survival. The only way we break thiscycle is through large player sales, which through Lawrie, Mills, and probably Dipepa we seem to be attempting. If she wished to make a concerted effort at the playoffs, she’s likely going to have to lose £5m per annum, and then likely come straight back down unless she finds £15m to lose the year after. Again - her decision-making has been poor and I genuinely believe she needs to hand over the executive decision making to someone else, but we’re genuinely lucky to have a local owner (who can’t and won’t do us any real damage) quite happy to effectively send millions into a black hole just to bounce around Leagues 1 and 2.

Notes I made on the other clubs last season from what I can find: Plymouth lost 3.2 Ipswich 20 Weds 7.2 Barnsley 4 Bolton 6.9 Posh 7.7 Derby 10.6 Pompey 8.3 Wycombe 3 Charlton 6.9 Lincoln 2.6 Shrewsbury 0.2 Fleetwood 1.7 Exeter Burton 0.4 Cheltenham +0.4 Rovers Vale 3.4 Oxford 6 Cambridge 0.3 Dons 2.2 Morecambe 1.3 Accrington 0.8 FGR 1.4

I very nearly put a thread on yesterday after looking through League 1 and Championship accounts. The blunt reality is you largely need to be losing £4m+ to compete at the top end of League 1 - only Plymouth are an outlier and in real danger of an immediate return. 7 of the top 8 lost at least £4m in 22/23 with far larger turnover than us, which really illustrates the discrepancy in wage budget. Posh and Pompey each spent around £8m on wages last season - neither went up. Ipswich spent nearly £13m on wages alone. You need to be losing £15m to then just stay in the Championship, spending £20-30m on wages alone. If we ever fluked it, we’re back down within 2 seasons. You get the very odd exception, but clubs who don’t lose £15m a year in the Championship come down - Wycombe, Blackpool, and Rotherham being the most obvious examples. There is absolutely no doubt that the club has horrendously spent in the last 18 months, and 3.4m is hefty loss to finish 18th (around the second or third highest of teams who finished in the bottom half), but we cannot take for granted that Carol is effectively happy to write off millions per annum to keep PVFC afloat. Only one club didn’t lose money in 22/23 and that was Cheltenham, who are likely down this year. Burton didn’t lose much, and are in danger of the drop this year. Same for Shrewsbury. Otherwise, it’s losses of 1m+ I’ve been very vocal in my critical of decision-making, but I’m finding some of the stick Carol is getting absolutely ludicrous. Her intentions are good and she’s probably our best option of having an owner who is happy to plug the financial gap that the system demands of owners without having ulterior motives.

Where does it say that?

This is just modern football. Nearly every single club loses money, every season, and has to be subsidised by an owner. 3.4m is a larger loss than what most of the other clubs saw who finished in the bottom half of League 1 in 22/23. The league was effectively split in two with 3M+ loss finishing top half and <3M loss finishing bottom half - bar us and Oxford, who lost 6m. Its clear that mistakes have been made, but it’s also clear that even if we’d been more efficient with spending we are likely to have lost £2m just staying in the division. I think it’s daft to understate that not many folk would be happy losing 3m just to keep Port Vale in League 1 - whilst wrongs need to be righted we’re still very lucky that Carol is effectively spending her kid’s inheritance covering our losses.

An absolutely monumental game. We all need to be bang up for it and create an intense atmosphere. We can’t get on the backs of these players - that time has come and gone. We know how poor the squad is. We know why that is. We’ve got 4 games to try and get 7 points. Relentless noise and positivity needed. This group are pretty fragile. Ripley Debrah Smith Yak Sang Ojo Garrity Plant Chislett Uche Dipepa Into them, I say.

I hate to be that person, but Posh lost, pre-tax, nearly £8m in the 22-23 financial year, subsidised by their owner. They are on a different financial stratosphere to us. We struggle to lose £1m a year.

Battered by a team with better football players - what an excellent side Posh are with a lovely mix of technical quality and athleticism. The players are fighting and Moore is organising them in a better fashion than we have been for most of the season. 4 games left. 3 at home. 7 points needed. All we can do is get behind this group on Saturday and Tuesday. Those games will decide the season.

These are absolutely excellent. Edwards, Burrows, Mason-Clark, and Poku are a class above. A long night. The season is defined by the next two.

Ah, well. Nevertheless. Saturday and Tuesday the big ones.

Feel like I’m going nuts. I thought we were pretty good considering how awful the squad is and the quality of the opposition!

Really don’t see how we can be critical. If we opened up against these we’d get turned over. We’ve had a pretty decent plan and bar a deflection go in at 0-0. I’m heartened. Moore can set a team up and if we scrap like we have done first-half then we’ll have a good chance in all three home games.