Jump to content

  • OVF player sponsorship 2022

    £10 to enter. More details and a link to donate can be found here

When was the last time we had so many local players in the first team squad?


Recommended Posts

Advert:


10 hours ago, Joe B said:

As an example; Stoke have invested loads in their youth set up. Lovely training ground, pristine pitches, all committed to playing a certain system etc etc etc. I've reffed up there a few times and its an outstanding set up. Everything geared towards churning out talent. Countless coaches with iPads and 'philosophies' who talk about transitions, half-spaces, and counter-pressing. It's Cat 1, so it's costing them 2.5m a year minimum, plus the tens of millions they've already spent getting there.

What have they produced?

Nathan Collins - signed at 15 from Cherry Orchard

Tyrese Campbell - signed at 17 from Man City

D'Margio Wright-Phillips - signed at 19 from Man City

Tom Edwards - loaned out to the MLS for 2 seasons, unable to get into a mid-table Championship side

Joe Bursik - signed at 17 from Wimbledon

Tashan Oakley-Boothe - signed at 20 from Spurs

Harry Souttar - signed at 18 from Dundee Utd

I guess we'll see if Tezgel, Taylor, and Forrester buck the trend, but for the last few years the only youngsters Stoke have produced of any note have been signed after the age of 15 from another club. Even if one or two do begin to break through, it's been a poor return on investment. They ranked 62/83 in Academy Productivity Rankings 20/21, the worst Cat 1 performance in the country. That's costing them millions a year.

You're either Cat 1, spending millions to get there and millions to stay there for a potentially barren showing (like Stoke), or you're not Cat 1, and you're at the mercy of all the big academies and lose your good young talent for buttons, like us.

Wow, that's a really useful summary of the impossibility of the system when you're a club like Vale.

Yet another example of the gross inequalities that exist in football.

I guess the challenge is in finding ways to make the system work for Vale, and bring it in line with the culture of looking after people that is the best part of the present Vale set up imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, SFBT said:

Wow, that's a really useful summary of the impossibility of the system when you're a club like Vale.

Yet another example of the gross inequalities that exist in football.

I guess the challenge is in finding ways to make the system work for Vale, and bring it in line with the culture of looking after people that is the best part of the present Vale set up imo.

They need to up the tariffs to make it more restrictive. There may be some outcry at 'millions' being paid for a young lad but it needs to really benefit the selling club, and it'll make the bigger clubs more discerning as to who they sign. At present, Cat 1 clubs have hundreds on the books. Kids and families getting led on. They've got so much money they can scoop up as much talent as they want from across the country, and catch the talented ones in the net at 16, releasing the rest.

Higher tariffs, with an obligation that the selling club reinvests a certain % back into their academy set-up, would help. Would get genuine remuneration, an incentive to produce talent, and a discernible pathway to Cat 1 status; selling talent to the big academies. 

Right now, it feel's like a con. Club's appeasing their fans by ideologically wedding themselves to producing 'local talent', when instead all they're doing is the hard work for Man City and Chelsea, who can reap the benefits for about 50k.

Brentford usually get stuff right. They scrapped their academy and moved to a B-Team in 2016 when EPPP was announced, seeing where it was going. They were spending £1.5m a year on a Cat 2 academy, but had their two brightest players poached for peanuts.

Their B Team now play a mix of U23 and non-league teams, ensuring it isn't youth playing youth every week. Some weeks they play highly technical U23 sides, and the next they're getting elbowed by a part-timer which toughens them up, learning the rigours of the men's game. They're not wedded to the youth leagues, so can set up their own fixture programme. A Vale B-Team could play United U18s one week, Hanley Town the next. They often train with the first-team so the pathway is established immediately.

Fin Stevens was signed by them from Worthing. He's played in the B Team and is now beginning to feature in the first team. Nathan Young-Coombes was picked up from Rangers and has made a sub appearance for the first team. There's been 10 promotions to the first-team, including Marcus Forss (54 apps for the first team), Mads Sorensen (52), and Mads Roerslev (49). Mepham was sold for 12m.

We're never going to get an academy like Crewe, or Liverpool, or Man City. It just won't happen and the system is designed to stop us getting there. Think outside the box. We're in a globalised world and the days of having a team of local lads is gone. Don't fixate on it at the expense of success.

Absolute obsession of mine, this 😅

 

Edited by Joe B
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Joe B said:

They need to up the tariffs to make it more restrictive. There may be some outcry at 'millions' being paid for a young lad but it needs to really benefit the selling club, and it'll make the bigger clubs more discerning as to who they sign. At present, Cat 1 clubs have hundreds on the books. Kids and families getting led on. They've got so much money they can scoop up as much talent as they want from across the country, and catch the talented ones in the net at 16, releasing the rest.

Higher tariffs, with an obligation that the selling club reinvests a certain % back into their academy set-up, would help. Would get genuine remuneration, an incentive to produce talent, and a discernible pathway to Cat 1 status; selling talent to the big academies. 

Right now, it feel's like a con. Club's appeasing their fans by ideologically wedding themselves to producing 'local talent', when instead all they're doing is the hard work for Man City and Chelsea, who can reap the benefits for about 50k.

Brentford usually get stuff right. They scrapped their academy and moved to a B-Team in 2016 when EPPP was announced, seeing where it was going. They were spending £1.5m a year on a Cat 2 academy, but had their two brightest players poached for peanuts.

Their B Team now play a mix of U23 and non-league teams, ensuring it isn't youth playing youth every week. Some weeks they play highly technical U23 sides, and the next they're getting elbowed by a part-timer which toughens them up, learning the rigours of the men's game. They're not wedded to the youth leagues, so can set up their own fixture programme. A Vale B-Team could play United U18s one week, Hanley Town the next. They often train with the first-team so the pathway is established immediately.

Fin Stevens was signed by them from Worthing. He's played in the B Team and is now beginning to feature in the first team. Nathan Young-Coombes was picked up from Rangers and has made a sub appearance for the first team. There's been 10 promotions to the first-team, including Marcus Forss (54 apps for the first team), Mads Sorensen (52), and Mads Roerslev (49). Mepham was sold for 12m.

We're never going to get an academy like Crewe, or Liverpool, or Man City. It just won't happen and the system is designed to stop us getting there. Think outside the box. We're in a globalised world and the days of having a team of local lads is gone. Don't fixate on it at the expense of success.

Absolute obsession of mine, this 😅

 

Are you briefing Carol?

You should be!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, SFBT said:

Are you briefing Carol?

You should be!

Carol is the best thing to ever happen to this club and has consistently made the right decision for the future of Port Vale.

I'm unsure as whether her apparent commitment to rebuilding the academy is the most prudent. However, she's definitely proven to be an excellent operator so I'll back it if she does go through with it. I'm just a gob on a forum.

Edited by Joe B
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Carol is the best thing to ever happen to this club and has consistently made the right decision for the future of Port Vale.

I'm unsure as whether her apparent commitment to rebuilding the academy is the most prudent. However, she's definitely proven to be an excellent operator so I'll back it if she does go through with it. I'm just a gob on a forum.

I'm not sure that she has always made the right decisions.

However, she has the good sense, and humility, to listen to others views before making decisions.

I sincerely hope that there are others in the club who know the territory and will be consulted with.

Your arguments on this issue appear to me to be sound.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that she has always made the right decisions.
However, she has the good sense, and humility, to listen to others views before making decisions.
I sincerely hope that there are others in the club who know the territory and will be consulted with.
Your arguments on this issue appear to me to be sound.
 
Maybe it is also a community youth project kindling a love of the Vale?




Sent from my SM-A715F using onevalefan mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely retain community/foundation training. Incentivise it with free tickets etc. Carol excels in this area and I hope we push on with it.

Youth academies are far different. Cut-throat, competitive, and for 95% of the players involved, heartbreaking. I know lads who have been released by Vale and it fostered more bitterness and animosity than love.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


A club local to me, Colchester United, made a big commitment in time and money to developing their academy.  That has coincided with a gradual decline in the first team performance and attendances. Very few players have come through from their academy.  They have nice facilities but a fading team.

Port Vale will never be able to develop an academy to match the Premier League teams, especially given our geographical position so close to so many really big teams.  We have 6 local players now, but only 2 came through our academy.  I would like to see a model where we can pick up players who went to a big club but were not immediately successful there. Of the current squad who came through that route includes Jake Taylor, Tom Conlon, James Wilson, Aidan Stone, Harry Charsley.

We could also harvest more from non-league, current players plucked from non-league by other teams include Ben Garrity, Connor Hall, Tom Pett. We should do better at  scouring non-league to get first pick of these players.

The fact that Billy Paynter has left suggests that some changes are afoot, let's see what happens. 

Like others who have posted here, I like the Brentford model.

I believe in Carol, and her team, I am sure they know all the various models and variations, let's see how things work out. Right now, we are successful, so I am sure the tweaking that needs to be done for future development will be done.

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Reporting Posts and Ignoring Users

    • Admin don't read everything. Don't assume we'll spot rule breaking. Please report posts and we'll act ASAP. If you're logged in use the orange report post button. If you're not logged in, please - Contact us here
    • If you can't get on with another user you can "ignore" them. Follow the link, type in their username and save - Click here
    • Check with admin if you wish to sell/auction any items. We're happy to support good causes but check first - Contact us here
  • Friends of OVF



×
×
  • Create New...