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When was the last time we had so many local players in the first team squad?


DazFred

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3 hours ago, Joe B said:

Both second-year scholars who haven't been offered a pro deal at 18.

A shame for them but unfortunately indicative that our academy just hasn't produced anywhere near enough over the past 20 years. Gibbons and Smith are the very rare exception. Even Morsy wasn't an academy product.

Be interesting to see what happens moving forward. I know there were some huge personnel changes in the academy setup and Carol mentioned a new Head of Academy, Will Ryder, who has been an academy coach at Man City, a Head Academy Coach and Phase Lead at Stoke and Wigan, U23 Head Coach at Morecambe, Head of Academy Coaching at Crewe, and involved with the FA.

I'm still of the view we scrap it all and go for a B Team of Category 1 castoffs but I understand it's ideologically outrageous.

Didn’t we sell a youth to man city for big money? 

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Big money is a strong term.

He was poached under the Elite Player Performance Plan which gives Category 1 clubs unfettered access to the best young talent in the country for absolute pittance. It's in the name of the 'national game', the theory being that the best young talent is at the best academies with the best coaches.

Even if talented players do slip past Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton, Crewe, Stoke, Birmingham, Villa, Wolves, Derby, and Forest, and end up at Vale, the vast majority of these clubs can waltz in and pick them up for buttons before he turns 10. The 90-minute rule went too, so clubs can sign players from anywhere in the country if they're Cat 1. It's miniscule money. The lad who went to City was 9, I think, and had been with us about a year, so we probably got around 3 grand. We might get some money in about 10 years if he plays professional football, but there's a chance he won't and who knows where we'll be at that time? Luke Daley went to Huddersfield at 16. (3 x 3k = 9) + (5 x 12.5 = 62.5) = 71.5k, for 7 years of coaching.

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At least with an independent tribunal, you could get decent fees for top talent. Now, regardless of the player, the scouts from every big club can turn up at our Under 11s games and sign whoever they want for 9k max, nothing we can do about it. If they're Cat 1, they can do this from all over the country as long as the player's family are happy. You could buy Port Vale under 9s for about 30 grand. The only way we'd ever get to see these players don the Black and White is if they are late bloomers, which is effectively what Smith and Gibbons were.

I can't grasp how an academy can be a viable money-making model for a lower league club unless you've established a reputation for decades ala Crewe. You have to invest millions to get Cat 1 privileges, and then maintain a crazy expenditure. Until then, you're at the mercy of the fixed tariff, any good work your scouts/coaches doing being worth, at maximum, about 50k. You invest millions in a system tilted against you, in the hope that it bears fruit about a decade later. I don't think we operate with those sorts of margins. Not yet, anyway.

Scrap it all, imo. Get a B team of players released by Cat 1 clubs + non-league talent. Have an elite youth coach at the helm and a designated recruitment unit who pores over every U23/U18 game + an extensive non-league network to identify the next Hugill. Maintain links with all local non-league sides and guarantee a couple of places a year to local boys. Have them playing the exact same system and style as the first-team so any one of them can step in in an injury crisis.

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As an example; Stoke have invested loads in their youth set up. Lovely training ground, pristine pitches, all committed to playing a certain system etc etc etc. I've reffed up there a few times and its an outstanding set up. Everything geared towards churning out talent. Countless coaches with iPads and 'philosophies' who talk about transitions, half-spaces, and counter-pressing. It's Cat 1, so it's costing them 2.5m a year minimum, plus the tens of millions they've already spent getting there.

What have they produced?

Nathan Collins - signed at 15 from Cherry Orchard

Tyrese Campbell - signed at 17 from Man City

D'Margio Wright-Phillips - signed at 19 from Man City

Tom Edwards - loaned out to the MLS for 2 seasons, unable to get into a mid-table Championship side

Joe Bursik - signed at 17 from Wimbledon

Tashan Oakley-Boothe - signed at 20 from Spurs

Harry Souttar - signed at 18 from Dundee Utd

I guess we'll see if Tezgel, Taylor, and Forrester buck the trend, but for the last few years the only youngsters Stoke have produced of any note have been signed after the age of 15 from another club. Even if one or two do begin to break through, it's been a poor return on investment. They ranked 62/83 in Academy Productivity Rankings 20/21, the worst Cat 1 performance in the country. That's costing them millions a year.

You're either Cat 1, spending millions to get there and millions to stay there for a potentially barren showing (like Stoke), or you're not Cat 1, and you're at the mercy of all the big academies and lose your good young talent for buttons, like us.

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10 hours ago, Joe B said:

As an example; Stoke have invested loads in their youth set up. Lovely training ground, pristine pitches, all committed to playing a certain system etc etc etc. I've reffed up there a few times and its an outstanding set up. Everything geared towards churning out talent. Countless coaches with iPads and 'philosophies' who talk about transitions, half-spaces, and counter-pressing. It's Cat 1, so it's costing them 2.5m a year minimum, plus the tens of millions they've already spent getting there.

What have they produced?

Nathan Collins - signed at 15 from Cherry Orchard

Tyrese Campbell - signed at 17 from Man City

D'Margio Wright-Phillips - signed at 19 from Man City

Tom Edwards - loaned out to the MLS for 2 seasons, unable to get into a mid-table Championship side

Joe Bursik - signed at 17 from Wimbledon

Tashan Oakley-Boothe - signed at 20 from Spurs

Harry Souttar - signed at 18 from Dundee Utd

I guess we'll see if Tezgel, Taylor, and Forrester buck the trend, but for the last few years the only youngsters Stoke have produced of any note have been signed after the age of 15 from another club. Even if one or two do begin to break through, it's been a poor return on investment. They ranked 62/83 in Academy Productivity Rankings 20/21, the worst Cat 1 performance in the country. That's costing them millions a year.

You're either Cat 1, spending millions to get there and millions to stay there for a potentially barren showing (like Stoke), or you're not Cat 1, and you're at the mercy of all the big academies and lose your good young talent for buttons, like us.

Wow, that's a really useful summary of the impossibility of the system when you're a club like Vale.

Yet another example of the gross inequalities that exist in football.

I guess the challenge is in finding ways to make the system work for Vale, and bring it in line with the culture of looking after people that is the best part of the present Vale set up imo.

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27 minutes ago, SFBT said:

Wow, that's a really useful summary of the impossibility of the system when you're a club like Vale.

Yet another example of the gross inequalities that exist in football.

I guess the challenge is in finding ways to make the system work for Vale, and bring it in line with the culture of looking after people that is the best part of the present Vale set up imo.

They need to up the tariffs to make it more restrictive. There may be some outcry at 'millions' being paid for a young lad but it needs to really benefit the selling club, and it'll make the bigger clubs more discerning as to who they sign. At present, Cat 1 clubs have hundreds on the books. Kids and families getting led on. They've got so much money they can scoop up as much talent as they want from across the country, and catch the talented ones in the net at 16, releasing the rest.

Higher tariffs, with an obligation that the selling club reinvests a certain % back into their academy set-up, would help. Would get genuine remuneration, an incentive to produce talent, and a discernible pathway to Cat 1 status; selling talent to the big academies. 

Right now, it feel's like a con. Club's appeasing their fans by ideologically wedding themselves to producing 'local talent', when instead all they're doing is the hard work for Man City and Chelsea, who can reap the benefits for about 50k.

Brentford usually get stuff right. They scrapped their academy and moved to a B-Team in 2016 when EPPP was announced, seeing where it was going. They were spending £1.5m a year on a Cat 2 academy, but had their two brightest players poached for peanuts.

Their B Team now play a mix of U23 and non-league teams, ensuring it isn't youth playing youth every week. Some weeks they play highly technical U23 sides, and the next they're getting elbowed by a part-timer which toughens them up, learning the rigours of the men's game. They're not wedded to the youth leagues, so can set up their own fixture programme. A Vale B-Team could play United U18s one week, Hanley Town the next. They often train with the first-team so the pathway is established immediately.

Fin Stevens was signed by them from Worthing. He's played in the B Team and is now beginning to feature in the first team. Nathan Young-Coombes was picked up from Rangers and has made a sub appearance for the first team. There's been 10 promotions to the first-team, including Marcus Forss (54 apps for the first team), Mads Sorensen (52), and Mads Roerslev (49). Mepham was sold for 12m.

We're never going to get an academy like Crewe, or Liverpool, or Man City. It just won't happen and the system is designed to stop us getting there. Think outside the box. We're in a globalised world and the days of having a team of local lads is gone. Don't fixate on it at the expense of success.

Absolute obsession of mine, this 😅

 

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19 minutes ago, Joe B said:

They need to up the tariffs to make it more restrictive. There may be some outcry at 'millions' being paid for a young lad but it needs to really benefit the selling club, and it'll make the bigger clubs more discerning as to who they sign. At present, Cat 1 clubs have hundreds on the books. Kids and families getting led on. They've got so much money they can scoop up as much talent as they want from across the country, and catch the talented ones in the net at 16, releasing the rest.

Higher tariffs, with an obligation that the selling club reinvests a certain % back into their academy set-up, would help. Would get genuine remuneration, an incentive to produce talent, and a discernible pathway to Cat 1 status; selling talent to the big academies. 

Right now, it feel's like a con. Club's appeasing their fans by ideologically wedding themselves to producing 'local talent', when instead all they're doing is the hard work for Man City and Chelsea, who can reap the benefits for about 50k.

Brentford usually get stuff right. They scrapped their academy and moved to a B-Team in 2016 when EPPP was announced, seeing where it was going. They were spending £1.5m a year on a Cat 2 academy, but had their two brightest players poached for peanuts.

Their B Team now play a mix of U23 and non-league teams, ensuring it isn't youth playing youth every week. Some weeks they play highly technical U23 sides, and the next they're getting elbowed by a part-timer which toughens them up, learning the rigours of the men's game. They're not wedded to the youth leagues, so can set up their own fixture programme. A Vale B-Team could play United U18s one week, Hanley Town the next. They often train with the first-team so the pathway is established immediately.

Fin Stevens was signed by them from Worthing. He's played in the B Team and is now beginning to feature in the first team. Nathan Young-Coombes was picked up from Rangers and has made a sub appearance for the first team. There's been 10 promotions to the first-team, including Marcus Forss (54 apps for the first team), Mads Sorensen (52), and Mads Roerslev (49). Mepham was sold for 12m.

We're never going to get an academy like Crewe, or Liverpool, or Man City. It just won't happen and the system is designed to stop us getting there. Think outside the box. We're in a globalised world and the days of having a team of local lads is gone. Don't fixate on it at the expense of success.

Absolute obsession of mine, this 😅

 

Are you briefing Carol?

You should be!

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2 minutes ago, SFBT said:

Are you briefing Carol?

You should be!

Carol is the best thing to ever happen to this club and has consistently made the right decision for the future of Port Vale.

I'm unsure as whether her apparent commitment to rebuilding the academy is the most prudent. However, she's definitely proven to be an excellent operator so I'll back it if she does go through with it. I'm just a gob on a forum.

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15 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Carol is the best thing to ever happen to this club and has consistently made the right decision for the future of Port Vale.

I'm unsure as whether her apparent commitment to rebuilding the academy is the most prudent. However, she's definitely proven to be an excellent operator so I'll back it if she does go through with it. I'm just a gob on a forum.

I'm not sure that she has always made the right decisions.

However, she has the good sense, and humility, to listen to others views before making decisions.

I sincerely hope that there are others in the club who know the territory and will be consulted with.

Your arguments on this issue appear to me to be sound.

 

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I'm not sure that she has always made the right decisions.
However, she has the good sense, and humility, to listen to others views before making decisions.
I sincerely hope that there are others in the club who know the territory and will be consulted with.
Your arguments on this issue appear to me to be sound.
 
Maybe it is also a community youth project kindling a love of the Vale?




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Definitely retain community/foundation training. Incentivise it with free tickets etc. Carol excels in this area and I hope we push on with it.

Youth academies are far different. Cut-throat, competitive, and for 95% of the players involved, heartbreaking. I know lads who have been released by Vale and it fostered more bitterness and animosity than love.

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A club local to me, Colchester United, made a big commitment in time and money to developing their academy.  That has coincided with a gradual decline in the first team performance and attendances. Very few players have come through from their academy.  They have nice facilities but a fading team.

Port Vale will never be able to develop an academy to match the Premier League teams, especially given our geographical position so close to so many really big teams.  We have 6 local players now, but only 2 came through our academy.  I would like to see a model where we can pick up players who went to a big club but were not immediately successful there. Of the current squad who came through that route includes Jake Taylor, Tom Conlon, James Wilson, Aidan Stone, Harry Charsley.

We could also harvest more from non-league, current players plucked from non-league by other teams include Ben Garrity, Connor Hall, Tom Pett. We should do better at  scouring non-league to get first pick of these players.

The fact that Billy Paynter has left suggests that some changes are afoot, let's see what happens. 

Like others who have posted here, I like the Brentford model.

I believe in Carol, and her team, I am sure they know all the various models and variations, let's see how things work out. Right now, we are successful, so I am sure the tweaking that needs to be done for future development will be done.

 

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