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Vale Park Capacity


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I know the covenant has not been on the ground for long as it was put in place to protect the ground from the scheming Scumthwaite so that he couldn't close the club down and sell off the ground. Now that he is just an unpleasant smell that still hangs around the club could it be possible to get a "Deed of release" signed to release the club from the covenant on the understanding that a new ground was built to replace it which could then maybe transfer the covenant to the new stadium.

If this was possible it would at least give Carol an option to be able to sell Vale Park for more money than she would get than selling it as a property which could only be used as a sports stadium.

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The sporting covenant was something that made me uncomfertable at the time for the very reasom if we evee decided to do this we can't sell it for say a housing development supermarket etc.

I know when we went Morecambe the publican who owned the pub by the old ground said that the land it was on couldn't be sold for redevelopment because it had to be used for sporting events. Its now a supermarket he said they got around it by building a 5 a side pitch at the bottom of the car park.

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Looking at it you may be able to move the sporting covenant by applying to the council. Shrewsbury Town did this recently to stop some building near their ground (they wanted to expand the area their covenant covered to stop this). More controversially, Sam Hamman bought the Plough Lane covenant out (the dodgy council were clearly happy to take the cash and screw the club) so it can be done. 

I would imagine if it's an appeal to the council you need to explain why you want it moving (to allow other use of the old ground) and why it's justified (that it would move to the place the new ground is instead).

So, there is possibly that option (as long as the ground itself is not too riddled with mineshafts) of developing VP and getting money that way.

Incidentally, a lot of the major projects see clubs join up with building firms who will develop the rest of the site. That means you then have a load of facilities onsite (rather than the ground being in the middle of nowhere) and you get a significant reduction in the costs the club has to meet. The likes of York and Rotherham have also had pretty large contributions from local councils too.

Of course, there has to be the appetite to move, the right place to move to and the liquidity of funds to do so and I appreciate that it does look like the majority of fans want to stay at VP anyhow so I may always be in the minority here.

However, what I'm trying to point out is that moving to a new ground doesn't necessarily incur a huge debt if you get the right sort of partnerships with commercial companies and the council. It makes sense - there's a lot of clubs with new grounds and they're clearly not all destitute as a result of those moves. Some did make a mess of the move but others did it sensibly and didn't incur millions in debt.

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Forgive me if this has already been discussed re the current capacity but, aside from the unused section of the Lorne Street, what are the particular 'health & safety' issues that prevent us from selling all of the available seats elsewhere in the ground? There are clubs in the national league that can fill their ground to the rafters so surely VP should be able to? In the scheme of things it seems a token gesture to reduce the capacity by a few thousand but it doesn't give a good impression when on SkyTV beamed around the world it appears that we cant sell all of the home tickets for such a big game!

 

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34 minutes ago, Stockleys_socks said:

Forgive me if this has already been discussed re the current capacity but, aside from the unused section of the Lorne Street, what are the particular 'health & safety' issues that prevent us from selling all of the available seats elsewhere in the ground? There are clubs in the national league that can fill their ground to the rafters so surely VP should be able to? In the scheme of things it seems a token gesture to reduce the capacity by a few thousand but it doesn't give a good impression when on SkyTV beamed around the world it appears that we cant sell all of the home tickets for such a big game!

 

You are right it also don’t look good when the crowd is quoted as 9000 in a huge game against Newport when there we’re a lot more there 

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Forgive me if this has already been discussed re the current capacity but, aside from the unused section of the Lorne Street, what are the particular 'health & safety' issues that prevent us from selling all of the available seats elsewhere in the ground? There are clubs in the national league that can fill their ground to the rafters so surely VP should be able to? In the scheme of things it seems a token gesture to reduce the capacity by a few thousand but it doesn't give a good impression when on SkyTV beamed around the world it appears that we cant sell all of the home tickets for such a big game!
 
Not a token gesture, the safety rules cover 100 pages. Un-reserved seating drops capacity to 90% as an example.

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2 hours ago, Stockleys_socks said:

Forgive me if this has already been discussed re the current capacity but, aside from the unused section of the Lorne Street, what are the particular 'health & safety' issues that prevent us from selling all of the available seats elsewhere in the ground? There are clubs in the national league that can fill their ground to the rafters so surely VP should be able to? In the scheme of things it seems a token gesture to reduce the capacity by a few thousand but it doesn't give a good impression when on SkyTV beamed around the world it appears that we cant sell all of the home tickets for such a big game!

 

I think it's unclear what the specific reasons are. It's down to safety regulations but why those numbers have been decided for VP when other grounds with similar issues regarding exits, turnstiles etc can seemingly have greater capacities is unclear. For instance, if it is a maximum of 2,000 in the Railway stand that's 57% of the previous 3,500 capacity. I think that why we can understand some reduction in capacity, no-one is sure why it is so low and what measures the club could take to raise them (if they could afford to do so). 

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23 minutes ago, robf said:

I think it's unclear what the specific reasons are. It's down to safety regulations but why those numbers have been decided for VP when other grounds with similar issues regarding exits, turnstiles etc can seemingly have greater capacities is unclear. For instance, if it is a maximum of 2,000 in the Railway stand that's 57% of the previous 3,500 capacity. I think that why we can understand some reduction in capacity, no-one is sure why it is so low and what measures the club could take to raise them (if they could afford to do so). 

Unclear is an understatement! I don't understand any reduction in capacity because what has changed/got worse since we last filled VP?

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1 minute ago, Stockleys_socks said:

Unclear is an understatement! I don't understand any reduction in capacity because what has changed/got worse since we last filled VP?

It could be the regulations rather than the stadium that have changed. Either way, it's certainly extremely draconian and galling when you see other stadiums which seemingly aren't subject to the same rules.

I don't know enough about this but are the regulations nationwide or set locally? By the council, police or both?

Is it that the issue that we are subject to local guidelines which are far stricter than other places? I honestly don't know.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, robf said:

It could be the regulations rather than the stadium that have changed. Either way, it's certainly extremely draconian and galling when you see other stadiums which seemingly aren't subject to the same rules.

I don't know enough about this but are the regulations nationwide or set locally? By the council, police or both?

Is it that the issue that we are subject to local guidelines which are far stricter than other places? I honestly don't know.

I dont know anything about these things either and I may be way off the mark but the above link suggests that it is the local authority that issues the safety certificate in consultation with the police. The devil will be in the detail of course but maybe its at the discretion of the appointed H&S person within the local authority?

Edited by Stockleys_socks

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1 hour ago, Stockleys_socks said:

I dont know anything about these things either and I may be way off the mark but the above link suggests that it is the local authority that issues the safety certificate in consultation with the police. The devil will be in the detail of course but maybe its at the discretion of the appointed H&S person within the local authority?

The club applies for a Safety Certificate based on the Green Guide from the  above, which applies to all  stadiums above 10,000 capacity. There is a copy of Plymouths on the internet showing the detail, every seat, exit, turnstile are shown and have to be in working order and safe for example. Vale seats date from 1990, possible the rules have changed since then, highly likely that remedial work has been neglected and some capacity can be restored next season now that it is needed.

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