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Russia invade Ukraine


boslemportvale91
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9 hours ago, WV said:

Don't Ukraine get a say in whether they want to join NATO? (not sure how it works) 

 

Don't like the phrase 'our fault' but when trying to empathise or understand the Russian perspective on Ukraine joining NATO, would we or the USA like Russian missiles in Mexico or similar for the UK?

Who is putting missiles in Ukraine? 

 

Your post sounds very much like an attempt to sympathise with the Russian situation while completely ignoring their actions in invading Ukraine. 

My opinion is that Russia's actions could have been avoided if 'the west' had given a concession to Russia about Ukraine not joining NATO.

Why do you think Russia have invaded the Ukraine?

How do you expect to solve any conflict without understanding the opposing rhetoric? 

 

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China sent troops to help the N.Koreans, and yes they did not have nuclear weapons but they did have the man power- a lot of it...
But the UN could go into Korea without the risk of a nuclear war with China, whereas with the current MAD system a direct war with a Russian madman is too much of a risk.

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2 hours ago, Diego Maradona said:

My opinion is that Russia's actions could have been avoided if 'the west' had given a concession to Russia about Ukraine not joining NATO.

Why do you think Russia have invaded the Ukraine?

How do you expect to solve any conflict without understanding the opposing rhetoric? 

 

If Ukraine had said no to joining NATO it would have been another excuse. Ukraine are in the process of joining the EU, the EU want to have their own army. Putin will use any excuse to justify what he is doing, the guy is off his rocker, lost the plot, I don’t know what he wants to achieve because he will never keep control of the Ukraine. 

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3 hours ago, Diego Maradona said:

My opinion is that Russia's actions could have been avoided if 'the west' had given a concession to Russia about Ukraine not joining NATO.

 

Chamberlain..... Poland...... appeasement. 

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7 hours ago, philpvfc said:

If Ukraine had said no to joining NATO it would have been another excuse. Ukraine are in the process of joining the EU, the EU want to have their own army. Putin will use any excuse to justify what he is doing, the guy is off his rocker, lost the plot, I don’t know what he wants to achieve because he will never keep control of the Ukraine. 

 

6 hours ago, geosname said:

Chamberlain..... Poland...... appeasement. 

My opinion is based on the fact that if we made a concession to Russia, Russia would not invade Ukraine. Now we'll obviously never know how that 'way forward' would have panned out.

Yes the relationship with Russia would not be fantastic but surely it would be better than the current situation. Also, there would be none of devastation that is now starting to play out, at least in the short to medium term: no loss of life, no refugees etc.

Respectfully, 'How do you see the current situation playing out in the short and medium term?' For: 

The Ukrainian people, where it leaves the relationship between NATO and Russia, the world economy and the stability of Europe?

 

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29 minutes ago, Diego Maradona said:

 

My opinion is based on the fact that if we made a concession to Russia, Russia would not invade Ukraine. Now we'll obviously never know how that 'way forward' would have panned out.

Yes the relationship with Russia would not be fantastic but surely it would be better than the current situation. Also, there would be none of devastation that is now starting to play out, at least in the short to medium term: no loss of life, no refugees etc.

Respectfully, 'How do you see the current situation playing out in the short and medium term?' For: 

The Ukrainian people, where it leaves the relationship between NATO and Russia, the world economy and the stability of Europe?

 

What would you suggest? Ukraine banned from joining NATO? Ukraine withdraw their application to join the EU?, where does it end?. Russia cannot tell other independent countries what they can and cannot do. If we had then it will be the same for Finland and any other country Russia want to bully. 
 

If we had done as above and Russia had not invaded then it would have pushed Ukraine to form alliance with Russia making it another Belarus and making the rest of Europe more vulnerable.

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23 minutes ago, Diego Maradona said:

 

My opinion is based on the fact that if we made a concession to Russia, Russia would not invade Ukraine. Now we'll obviously never know how that 'way forward' would have panned out.

Yes the relationship with Russia would not be fantastic but surely it would be better than the current situation. Also, there would be none of devastation that is now starting to play out, at least in the short to medium term: no loss of life, no refugees etc.

Respectfully, 'How do you see the current situation playing out in the short and medium term?' For: 

The Ukrainian people, where it leaves the relationship between NATO and Russia, the world economy and the stability of Europe?

 

You start by basing an opinion on what you assume is a fact, very shakey beginning.

Negotiation is great if all parties are reasonable and sensible, throw in a despot and they become unreliable.

Europe is dependant on countries outside it's control so will always be susceptible to instability and whims of unstable leaders.

Where you draw the line is what price you are prepared to pay. Do we say stop after Ukraine? Belarus? Georgia? Poland?

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3 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

What would you suggest? Ukraine banned from joining NATO? Ukraine withdraw their application to join the EU?, where does it end?. Russia cannot tell other independent countries what they can and cannot do. If we had then it will be the same for Finland and any other country Russia want to bully. 
 

If we had done as above and Russia had not invaded then it would have pushed Ukraine to form alliance with Russia making it another Belarus and making the rest of Europe more vulnerable.

A lot of what we are saying is clearly speculation. On my side: Russia not invading Ukraine if the west had given them a concession, on your side: Ukraine been forced to form an alliance with Russia. Others have also said that Russia would found another reason to invade Ukraine.

My main argument is that I don't want to see the loss of life, terror, devastation, refugees etc. just for giving Russia this temporary concession.

However we are clearly poles apart in our opinions and I simply agree to disagree.

Again, respectfully, how do you see the situation in Ukraine concluding in the short and medium term?

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20 minutes ago, Diego Maradona said:

A lot of what we are saying is clearly speculation. On my side: Russia not invading Ukraine if the west had given them a concession, on your side: Ukraine been forced to form an alliance with Russia. Others have also said that Russia would found another reason to invade Ukraine.

My main argument is that I don't want to see the loss of life, terror, devastation, refugees etc. just for giving Russia this temporary concession.

However we are clearly poles apart in our opinions and I simply agree to disagree.

Again, respectfully, how do you see the situation in Ukraine concluding in the short and medium term?

None of us want to see what’s going on, it’s just that countries just cannot bow to Russia or America for that matter when bullied.

I think Putin is in a mess, he doesn’t seem right in the head recently, usually a calm character, things aren’t going the way he predicted in the fact Ukraine aren’t laying down arms. I think his intentions are to put his own puppet in to power and make Ukraine another Belarus with close ties to the Kremlin and anti Europe but I don’t think the people of Ukraine will ever allow it meaning continuous in fighting. I also think the Russians will turn on Putin, the vast majority don’t want the war and the more Russian troops that lose their lives and the longer this goes on the more the public will get restless. Russia will take Kiev but I don’t think they will get what they want ultimately.

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8 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

None of us want to see what’s going on, it’s just that countries just cannot bow to Russia or America for that matter when bullied.

I think Putin is in a mess, he doesn’t seem right in the head recently, usually a calm character, things aren’t going the way he predicted in the fact Ukraine aren’t laying down arms. I think his intentions are to put his own puppet in to power and make Ukraine another Belarus with close ties to the Kremlin and anti Europe but I don’t think the people of Ukraine will ever allow it meaning continuous in fighting. I also think the Russians will turn on Putin, the vast majority don’t want the war and the more Russian troops that lose their lives and the longer this goes on the more the public will get restless. Russia will take Kiev but I don’t think they will get what they want ultimately.

Regarding your thoughts on the outcome for Ukraine, I'm not sure that that outcome is more favourable for Ukrainians than a temporary concession???

It will be interesting to see how Russian public opinion plays out but I fear any anti Putin/ anti-war sentiments will be crushed. But we will see.

I believe that Russian forces are invading Ukraine more slowly as to try to avoid as many 'unnecessary' Russian deaths as possible and therefore keep the Russian public 'on-side' as far as the Kremlin is concerned.

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1 hour ago, Diego Maradona said:

A lot of what we are saying is clearly speculation. On my side: Russia not invading Ukraine if the west had given them a concession, on your side: Ukraine been forced to form an alliance with Russia. Others have also said that Russia would found another reason to invade Ukraine.

My main argument is that I don't want to see the loss of life, terror, devastation, refugees etc. just for giving Russia this temporary concession.

However we are clearly poles apart in our opinions and I simply agree to disagree.

Again, respectfully, how do you see the situation in Ukraine concluding in the short and medium term?

You cannot concede to bullies. I don't think it would be a temporary concession. Russia cannot tell other independent countries what to do and they need to be shown that before other countries are next. Where would you draw the line? The Stans? Finland? Poland? Germany? Which country do they invade where you say right enough is enough? 

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7 minutes ago, WV said:

You cannot concede to bullies. I don't think it would be a temporary concession. Russia cannot tell other independent countries what to do and they need to be shown that before other countries are next. Where would you draw the line? The Stans? Finland? Poland? Germany? Which country do they invade where you say right enough is enough? 

The concession would be not to expand NATO. Surely, that's just keeping the status quo. We would not be giving Russia anything other than that. No war, no loss of life, no refugees etc.

As above for my other thoughts.

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Appeasment never works. Ever. Naive to think otherwise.

Ukraine is an independent state of 44 million people. Why should you have the right to self detirmination in general elections or the Brexit referendum for example, but they can't decide what alliances they want to be or not be members of?

 

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29 minutes ago, Doha said:

Appeasment never works. Ever. Naive to think otherwise.

Ukraine is an independent state of 44 million people. Why should you have the right to self detirmination in general elections or the Brexit referendum for example, but they can't decide what alliances they want to be or not be members of?

 

Appeasement can only ever buy time for the situation to change, the realignment of Europe has been going on since 1989,  unfortunately a megalomaniac has become involved.  Hopefully he has over-reached himself and his invasion will fail, and so will his grip on power. Unfortunately he has some terrible weapons such as the Thermobaric flamethrowers to use against any opposition.

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The concession would be not to expand NATO. Surely, that's just keeping the status quo. We would not be giving Russia anything other than that. No war, no loss of life, no refugees etc.
As above for my other thoughts.
When Russia annexed Crimea. The rest of the world made a concession. Putin didn't stop there. He saw that concession as a sign of weakness and then decided that he could take the rest of Ukraine. At some point you have to stop making concessions and stand up to a bully. The only real concern is how do you stand up to him without massive loss of life.
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The ruble will collapse to worthlessness tomorrow morning when the market opens due to the unprecedentedly brick wall sanctions, hence the desperation below. Expect more non stop war crimes tonight.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Doha

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3 hours ago, Diego Maradona said:

The concession would be not to expand NATO. Surely, that's just keeping the status quo. We would not be giving Russia anything other than that. No war, no loss of life, no refugees etc.

As above for my other thoughts.

We already let them have Crimea by doing nothing. Do you honestly believe that is Putin's reason for invading Ukraine? If NATO had agreed to not expand (why should they?) then Putin would have found another reason and I wonder if you would still be saying let them get what they want? 

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