Match Thread: Rochdale v Port Vale

[Coyney Valiant]

7 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

I agree with this... no one is going to get everything right... DC and Flickers said that they wish they didn't have to do as much business in Jan and we all know its very hard to get right mid season as cost and prices sky rocket.

And that's why imploring people to have a long term view on this... people have been saying it would be a failure if we didn't get promoted this year. Now we can argue semantics but I do think that's the wrong word. It would be disappointing, I totally agree... but the regime cant be classed as a failure so soon.

Now some of that could be because tone is very hard to read on here... and I'm not wrapping you up in the RZ type who genuinely don't want it to be DC who is successful, but some of your posts do focus heavily on the negative... The one on the Jan signings for example... I get that was aimed at me because we have a bit of back and forth (which I quite enjoy by the way)... but sounds like you are blaming DC and Flickers for getting it wrong like they did it on purpose. But it obvious that they wouldnt have wanted to go out and do that much business in a difficult window. 

And my fear is that there are a section of fans that will feed off that negativity and start making stupid decisions around how they act at games, towards the management team and the payers... I genuinely fear we will shoot ourselves in the foot and turn against a regime that's brilliant because its not happening now now now.

It may take a couple of attempts to get out of this god forsaken league... but if DC and Flickers are improving the club (and I absolutely believe they are) then they should be afforded a few attempts to get us up. Bradford, Mansfield and Salford tell us that just because the players are great, doesn't guarantee promotion.

 

So will it be unreasonable of supporters to expect to finish at least in the playoffs next season ? and if we don’t we can judge that as failure 

[Bycarsbill]

19 minutes ago, Wrex said:

I think Covolan is just another case of a player being seen as a world beater once he is not playing. If he remains sidelined until the end of the season that would be fine with me

Agreed, it's difficult to trust a player who, on a number of occasions this season, has shown himself to have a clear lack of self-discipline.  He may well be a reasonable keeper, but has shown by being sent-off three times, not to have the discipline and professionalism required to get management backing.

[Santa]

I don’t think Holy is an upgrade on Brown so we’re no better off than we were this time last year.

Going from Covolan to Holy suggests we either don’t know what profile of goalkeeper we’re looking for, or we just took what we could get.

We’ve done a lot of good recruitment recently but the goalkeeping department hasn’t been one of them.

[Portvale4]

1 hour ago, valiant_593 said:

It’s not immediate success. We have been in this division for 6 years. It will get more difficult next season sides like Stockport should fly. Granted it’s reasonably new with our structure but we still have arguably our best players at the club from the previous regime. 

If will be difficult to build a team when potentially the likes of Conlon and Gibbons leave in the summer. 

There’s nothing dangerous what so ever about rightly criticising a poor performance where we have thrown another 2 points away against the worst side we have faced this season.  We constantly get let down by vale, we’re more than in our rights to criticise / be disappointed - I’m sure it was DC who said play offs were the minimum this season. 

I thought we made drastic improvements in the summer. Some fantastic signings but I also think we have gone backwards since January, Hall and Hussey aside we look weaker. Nobody will ever convince me that signing two young lads to replace Rodney (granted poor this season) is the way to go.

I also find it interesting to see how we are actually building for the future? Looking at the signings. 

Edmondson, Harratt, Holy, Cooper. Are these all part of this development plan where we continue to build? We have ditched a young keeper who made 0 errors and is our player for one who imo looks worse and isn’t even our player. Cooper is no better than Hurst. And the two young lads are exactly that; young lads. Personally I fail to see how / where the development of this squad is / will be. Our best players in Conlon and Gibbons I’m pretty certain will leave in the summer and all the loan players leave. So we’re back to square 1, not to mention I’m guessing we will need another new keeper. Charlsley, another one, what was he signed for? Is he part of the future or is he to cover whilst Taylor and Conlon are out? The lad from Man City, strikes me as someone like Amos that we might not even see. It wouldn’t surprise me to see the summer window very similar to January with further mass changes. 

We’re not out of it yet, far from it. And as poor as I think we were last night I can’t see many sides actually beating us and we do still have games in hand, play offs are now the target which given our start and investment i find slightly disappointing. Let’s hope we improve and fast. jones and amoo back in for certain on Saturday. 

I completely agree on your point on Cooper being no better than Hurst.

[Iron Curtain]

22 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Bit of a strawman, all this. I'm not seeing any real level of 'let's scrap Flitters/DC/The Matrix'. Fans are annoyed because autos are gone and playoffs is probably less than a coin flip, and League 2 is a tiring old slog, and the cycle of 'start well, fall away' is becoming a tad predictable.

You're then criticising these fans by suggesting they're turning on the entire project, which I don't think anyone is seriously doing - just pointing out the mistakes which has probably cost us this year, around recruitment and tactics.

You may just be incorrectly assuming that all my criticism is aimed at people that its not.

Have been very clear that I'm ok with fans being disappointed but if you think there isnt a subsection of fans ready and willing to jump up on down on DC and Flickers then you have been lucky to avoid some of the interactions that I have seen.

I totally understand that the vast vast majority of fans are sensible and get that this is hard and takes time.

Within that context there are people who focus on the negative and only appear when we lose.  Expectations have been set very high by a manager with the highest win ration in modern history (DC - 41.7%, Adams - 41.3%, Page - 37.6%, Askey- 37.4%, Bruno - 34.5%). 

It isnt unreasonable to call for a bit of calm in the short term when the long term trajectory is going in the right direction.

[valiant_593]

16 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

I agree with this... no one is going to get everything right... DC and Flickers said that they wish they didn't have to do as much business in Jan and we all know its very hard to get right mid season as cost and prices sky rocket.

And that's why imploring people to have a long term view on this... people have been saying it would be a failure if we didn't get promoted this year. Now we can argue semantics but I do think that's the wrong word. It would be disappointing, I totally agree... but the regime cant be classed as a failure so soon.

Now some of that could be because tone is very hard to read on here... and I'm not wrapping you up in the RZ type who genuinely don't want it to be DC who is successful, but some of your posts do focus heavily on the negative... The one on the Jan signings for example... I get that was aimed at me because we have a bit of back and forth (which I quite enjoy by the way)... but sounds like you are blaming DC and Flickers for getting it wrong like they did it on purpose. But it obvious that they wouldnt have wanted to go out and do that much business in a difficult window. 

And my fear is that there are a section of fans that will feed off that negativity and start making stupid decisions around how they act at games, towards the management team and the payers... I genuinely fear we will shoot ourselves in the foot and turn against a regime that's brilliant because its not happening now now now.

It may take a couple of attempts to get out of this god forsaken league... but if DC and Flickers are improving the club (and I absolutely believe they are) then they should be afforded a few attempts to get us up. Bradford, Mansfield and Salford tell us that just because the players are great, doesn't guarantee promotion.

 

I think the only ones really criticising DC and Co are the RZ’s and that Vale Popey wum. 

I understand my posts have been more negative recently but I’d argue justifiably so, for me as you know January was a bit of a mess. I know DC and Flickers didn’t want to do so much business, but I’d argue they didn’t have to. Players were injured yes, but we’re not at the end of Feb yet and have all but Conlon and Taylor back. Charsley has played about 30 mins so far, I’m sure Burgess could have done that job  

Im all for improving the squad i just didn’t like the approach in January. There was no need to sign a 3rd keeper. A lad who’s only ever played in Ireland to replace Politic - we have Hurst already. 2 young lads up top - we had Rodney. Charsley, what is he? He looks ok to me but I have no idea where he actually fits in. All of those 5 players just seem like odd signings and we surely could have maybe amended the budget slightly to get 1/2 players in that would improve us - Garlic has said the budget structure isn’t set in stone. 

From what I hear at games, the moaning isn’t generally aimed at DC and rightly so IMO, as you say we have clearly improved from last season. (I hear more moaning at Flitcroft than DC) from what I’ve heard from some in the club, justified. I could only see that turning if we went on a real poor run and started dropping down in the bottom half and then again I’d argue that criticism would be justified. 

[robf]

I'm not entirely convinced about the "Holy to blame" angle. To me, it looks like a great finish, right in the corner. It would have taken a world class save to stop it - to me, there's no shame in that beating you as a keeper. 

I also do think that players out of the team suddenly get their reputation enhanced for some reason. Much as Lucas Covolan seems a nice guy, he's arguably lost us two games through dismissals. That's far more worrying to me than Holy not pulling off a couple of world class saves when the opposition score. 

I'd rather have a steady but not spectacular performance (i.e. Holy) then the odd spectacular moment and quite a lot of chaos (Covolan). I'm sure the Vale defenders will think the same too. In the games I've seen, Holy particularly impressed with his aerial ability in and around the box, plucking the ball out of the air - something that Covolan sometimes fluffed. 

I'm perhaps being harsh on Lucas as he did have good spells as well - but I do think the key attribute a keeper needs to bring is that the defence can trust him and with Cov's erratic performances, I don't think the Vale defence could ever be 100% sure of what he would do next. 

 

[robf]

7 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

I think the only ones really criticising DC and Co are the RZ’s and that Vale Popey wum. 

I understand my posts have been more negative recently but I’d argue justifiably so, for me as you know January was a bit of a mess. I know DC and Flickers didn’t want to do so much business, but I’d argue they didn’t have to. Players were injured yes, but we’re not at the end of Feb yet and have all but Conlon and Taylor back. Charsley has played about 30 mins so far, I’m sure Burgess could have done that job  

Im all for improving the squad i just didn’t like the approach in January. There was no need to sign a 3rd keeper. A lad who’s only ever played in Ireland to replace Politic - we have Hurst already. 2 young lads up top - we had Rodney. Charsley, what is he? He looks ok to me but I have no idea where he actually fits in. All of those 5 players just seem like odd signings and we surely could have maybe amended the budget slightly to get 1/2 players in that would improve us - Garlic has said the budget structure isn’t set in stone. 

From what I hear at games, the moaning isn’t generally aimed at DC and rightly so IMO, as you say we have clearly improved from last season. (I hear more moaning at Flitcroft than DC) from what I’ve heard from some in the club, justified. I could only see that turning if we went on a real poor run and started dropping down in the bottom half and then again I’d argue that criticism would be justified. 

I can see your point @valiant_593 I do think that to be fair we did get two quality players in (Hall and Hussey) but I'm not totally convinced about the others.

I guess one of the issues is that the January market is really difficult as you often have to pay over the odds for the really good players.

Time will tell whether the newcomers are upgrades when all the players have had ten or so games played. Charsley's barely had a chance to show what he can do while Cooper has only played 180 minutes so far. 

[valiant_593]

4 minutes ago, robf said:

I can see your point @valiant_593 I do think that to be fair we did get two quality players in (Hall and Hussey) but I'm not totally convinced about the others.

I guess one of the issues is that the January market is really difficult as you often have to pay over the odds for the really good players.

Time will tell whether the newcomers are upgrades when all the players have had ten or so games played. Charsley's barely had a chance to show what he can do while Cooper has only played 180 minutes so far. 

Agreed. Those two were great signings, even with Hussey clearly being a very good player / signing in my opinion it would have made more sense to sign a proven forward rather than a left back, as we had Gibbons, Benning, Amos and even Jones who can play there and do a decent job 

Charsley looks ok to me but given his lack of game time just keeping Burgess makes more sense. cooper I think personally looks way off this level, hurst would have been a better option. 

[SuperHuman]

I’ve got no issues with Holy. He seems like a composed enough character to me. On the goal, the ball was struck hard and low, across goal and went in the corner. The error was more with the three defenders who should never have let the ball get to where it was. We lost the first, second and third ball.

 

[Dr Delgado]

3 minutes ago, robf said:

I'm not entirely convinced about the "Holy to blame" angle. To me, it looks like a great finish, right in the corner. It would have taken a world class save to stop it - to me, there's no shame in that beating you as a keeper. 

I also do think that players out of the team suddenly get their reputation enhanced for some reason. Much as Lucas Covolan seems a nice guy, he's arguably lost us two games through dismissals. That's far more worrying to me than Holy not pulling off a couple of world class saves when the opposition score. 

I'd rather have a steady but not spectacular performance (i.e. Holy) then the odd spectacular moment and quite a lot of chaos (Covolan). I'm sure the Vale defenders will think the same too. In the games I've seen, Holy particularly impressed with his aerial ability in and around the box, plucking the ball out of the air - something that Covolan sometimes fluffed. 

I'm perhaps being harsh on Lucas as he did have good spells as well - but I do think the key attribute a keeper needs to bring is that the defence can trust him and with Cov's erratic performances, I don't think the Vale defence could ever be 100% sure of what he would do next. 

 

Can only agree with you here, I wasn't at the Northampton away game but by all accounts we could have taken something from that game with 11 players on the pitch. Not so sure we would have beaten Swindon at home with 12 men on the pitch, nonetheless, Covolan's actions warranted punishment. I believe he has been punished in the harshest manner but probably correctly. Holy seems ok as a keeper, his kicking and accuracy is generally good with one or two overhit deliveries. It would appear that some are looking for a scapegoat, we are not where we want to be and it is disappointing but singling out players for unwarranted criticism is destructive. 

As an aside, why are people fearing Stockport and Wrexham like the apocalypse is arriving? 

We perhaps should have feared Morecambe last year.

[Portvale4]

It was a real tough one to take last night, especially after controlling the game for 93 minutes. But that's football, and you are always at risk of conceding a sloppy goal at any point. 

The performance wasn't bad as a whole, we controlled the midfield, won the battles down each flank and snuffed out any danger at the back. If we see that game out and come back with three points, people would say that's the perfect away performance.  

I do, however, believe that we should have gone for the killer second long before Wilson fluffed his effort wide. They were there for the taking - one of the worst football teams I've seen in a long time, I must say - and a second goal would have 100% seen us pick up the three points. 

Their goal was comical. How on earth we didn't clear the ball, I'll never know. Holy should be doing better. He's 6"9 ffs, his positioning was awful and he's been beaten too easily, for me. Hall should have done better. For all of his fancy play, he's been to blame for our last two goals. As Crosby said in his post-match, defenders get remember for clean sheets and that's two games in a row without one. Just one last thing on the goal, what on earth was the shape of the team? If they we can't reset in shape from a goal kick in the 93rd minute, then we truly deserved what we got. 

Automatic promotion is off the cards, with play-offs looking unlikely. Bristol Rovers, if any side, look the most likely to get a spot in there. That's an indication of our demise over the last few months. When we beat them in early December, there was 13 places and 12 points separating the us two. 

If we are to make them, we need Conlon back sooner rather than later. We miss him a lot, and I genuinely believe he could be the difference for us. I'd also be bring back Dan Jones, who for large parts before Christmas was easily our best player. 

I think the back three as a whole is solid, but that doesn't quite cut it for our style play. As mentioned by a previous poster, Cass-Smith-Jones earlier in the season, allowed us to play free-flowing football and pushed our midfield up. With underlapping and overlapping runs, we looked like a threating side, but I'm afraid Smith and Hall don't offer that. We really are suffering from a lack of 'footballers' in the back three. 

Very, very frustrating. Saturday is great chance to reignite the hope amongst our fanbase. The next three games are massive, with anything less than seven points unacceptable. 

With 16 games and 48 points to play for, there is a still a lot to play for. The unbeaten nine game run, with eight wins, under the same management team last season still gives me a glimmer of hope but perform how we did last season and we've got bob hope!

 

 

[darren1810]

I think we're all basically singing from the same hymn sheet and it's pure frustration.

There are  factors why our form has taken a dip, injuries have cost us big time.

It is frustration and what could of been that is doing my nut in.

League one is huge compared to League 2 which is almost a non-league in it's own right.

I get older each passing year and wouldn't mind a crack at Sheff Wednesday, Pompey or Sunderland again instead of some of these pitiful and horrible freezing nights against Stevenage, Salford, Sutton etc.

I don't think any fan being critical or negative is anything anti club or anti players/management. From my point of view i like to think i try and be as balanced as can be win lose or draw.

We just seem to me to be ponderous, laborious and slow in our build up and give the opposition time to re-group. 

I hope to see more dynamism and oomph and if we come up short so be it.

Let's fail gloriously instead of with a dull whimper .

[SuperHuman]

I’d also like to add a point I made earlier in the season. How many games have we won with Smith as right centre back?

Now I’m not saying Smith is the problem. We all love him for what he is - a head and kick it, no nonsense defender.

However, literally no attacks are started by him. He doesn’t pick a pass, he doesn’t carry the ball out, he doesn’t drive us up the field. Cass might have been worse off defensively but he didn’t half help us to create more. 

[Valiant62]

I think we look a good side who are finding it difficult to get momentum. My guess is we wont go up this year but we are capable of winning 8 in a row and getting in there but need to revv it up a notch. The danger in not going up is that we could lose momentum altogether. A run of good luck (not just neutral) could see us in amongst it.