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Vale squad size and the January transfer window


robf
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I was trying to do some "back of an envelope" notes on Vale's squad ahead of the January transfer window and see how many players we could get in without having to move players on / deregister them.

However,  I can't seem to find the actual rules. There's no EFL "statement" to go on for squad sizes (at least that I could see) so I'm also not sure of the exact rules. So, I wondered if anyone can help me out.

My questions are:

1. There's a limit of 21. What's the age cut-off for that? I read somewhere it was over 20s but I'm pretty sure it is over 21s.

2. At one point do they need to be 21 or under? The start of the season?

3. What's the deal with loanees? Do they count towards the squad limit number. All three of our loanees are 21 so they wouldn't count anyway but would a loan signing count towards the limit if they were over 21 years of age?

By the way, my rough calculations are as follows. Happy to accept any amends if any of you eagle-eyed readers spot a mistake...

--

Over 21 year-old registered players (20 players)

Covolan
Stone
Gibbons
Jones
Walker
Legge
Smith
Worrall
Garrity
Wilson
Conlon
Benning
Proctor
Johnson
Martin
Taylor
Amoo
Rodney
Pett
Burgess

21 years old at start of season so not subject to a limit (2 players + 3 loanees)

Hurst
Amos
Cass (loanee)
Politic (loanee)
Lloyd (loanee)

Plus any youth teamers who have been included in squads - Bailey, Jones, McFarlane

Over 21 but not registered in squad (1 player)

Whitehead

--

If that's right, we have a "senior" squad of 20, so we could get one (aged over 21) in January without getting rid of anyone. 

Amos could also potentially leave in January as his contract expires then, but as he's 21 he wouldn't create a space in the "senior squad" anyhow. 

 

 

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I think it’s done as U21s rather than over 21s. So the 21 year olds count towards the limit.

EFL Regulations 21/22

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/b3cd34c726c341ca9636610aa4503172/regulations-season-2021-22-final.pdf
 

Page 68

 

43.9 Squad Lists
 

43.9.1 Clubs shall be permitted to name up to a maximum number of Players in their Squad
List based on the following provisions:


(b) in respect of League One and Two Clubs 22 Players of which a minimum of 8 must be a Home Grown Player.


43.9.2 The following Players do not need to be included in the Squad List to be eligible to play in League Matches:


(b) in respect of League One Clubs and League Two Clubs:
(i) any Under 21 Players; and
(ii) goalkeepers.

Edited by Doha
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Thanks, so presuming loanees don't count that then makes a squad size of twenty.

In the list above, take out Covolan and Stone but add in Amos and Hurst.

Goalkeepers not included in limits (2 players)

  • Covolan
  • Stone

Over 20 year-old registered outfield players not including goalkeepers (20 players)

  • Gibbons
  • Jones
  • Walker
  • Legge
  • Smith
  • Worrall
  • Garrity
  • Wilson
  • Conlon
  • Benning
  • Proctor
  • Johnson
  • Martin
  • Taylor
  • Amoo
  • Rodney
  • Pett
  • Burgess
  • Hurst
  • Amos

Loanees (3)

  • Cass (loanee)
  • Politic (loanee)
  • Lloyd (loanee)

Over 21 but not registered in squad (1 player)

  • Whitehead

--

So, we'd be able to bring in two more senior players (three if Amos was to leave).

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Page 11  - ‘Under 21 Player’ means a Player under the age of 21 as at the 1 January in the year in which the Season concerned commences (e.g. for Season 2021/22, born on or after 1 January 2000).

Lloyd 11/02/2000
Cass 27/02/2000
Politic 05/03/2000

Those 3 probably don't count then, then not because they're loans but because we got lucky with their birthdays. They were 21 when we signed them but that 'on or after Jan 1st' disclaimer means we could sort of pretend they were U21.

So reading that I think you're right, looks like we could actually register another 2 players, 21 or over. 

 

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In relation that that James Norwood being transfer listed and us getting him as a free agent a la Theo Robinson dream

47.3 Transfer of a Non Contract Player. A Non Contract Player is transferred by cancelling his registration form and by re registration by his new Club. 

47.5 A Player whose registration is permanently transferred by a Club, or whose registration is cancelled for the purpose of joining any other Club, shall not subsequently be re-registered for the original Club within a period of twelve months from the date he left that Club, except with the prior consent of The League.

43.2 Subject always to the provisions of Regulation 43.3, after the expiry of each Transfer Window in each Season registrations of Players and transfers of registrations will, except as permitted in Regulation 57, be declined or will only be approved: 43.2.1 where the Player is an Out of Registration Player;

Could Ipswich deregister him mid season, come to an arrangement with us to terminate his contract like we did with Bradford and then he'd become an eligible to register free agent?

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I don’t know the rules but if:

. there’s no limit on how many players can be in a first team squad registered and otherwise

. any player can be deregistered at any time

. There’s no limit to how many players can be deregistered

...

Remove Burgess again, I know he’s probably got a hat-tip for good work but in the cold light of day he’s not needed

Hurst as well, and Amos would be a decent player but if he’s not playing we need to create space.

I personally would send Lloyd back and get two better strikers, wide players, and a younger Legge-type.

In for the penny, in for the pound, this transfer window will decide if we finish mid-table or top, because the gaps need filling ... if indeed it’s not too late by then.

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34 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

I think to sign a “de-registered” player he has to be deregistered by the end of the transfer window. I don’t think you can de register a player between transfer windows???

What if they are exceptionally <ovf censored>? Apply for an emergency de-registration order.

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I think there's a chance someone will leave, and I'm thinking Politic.  Maybe Vale already know Bolton want him back in January, and that's why he isn't playing much?  And maybe someone could go on loan, eg to a National League Club, there are one or two candidates. 

I hope Amos is given a chance and kept on - maybe kept on and loaned out to get game time? 

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14 hours ago, 1 said:

I don’t know the rules but if:

. there’s no limit on how many players can be in a first team squad registered and otherwise

. any player can be deregistered at any time

. There’s no limit to how many players can be deregistered

 

My original question was to work out if we needed to do that though. If we've already got some spare spaces there's no need to do things like deregister people. That's really the "nuclear" option as it means you have more players than spaces and are paying people who can't play for you.

We can add up to three permanent signings and add unlimited (in theory) loanees so surely we wouldn't be looking for any more than that.

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13 hours ago, 1 said:

I personally would send Lloyd back and get two better strikers, wide players, and a younger Legge-type.

I'm not sure we can. He's on a season-long loan. I think the recall process is there for the parent club to invoke, not the club he is being loaned to and there's no indication that there is a recall option in January anyhow*

* Unlike Politic's loan which is season-long but did mention there was a recall option for Bolton in January.

However, you can have as many loans as you want (but can only include five in the matchday squad) so there's the option to add more loans if you want.

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I said over a month ago, that I’d sell or loan Rodney. It’s a pity as he is a better right winger than a centre forward. We have two centre forwards that are injured with no one knowing their return date. Amoo is making a good effort at playing down the centre but I don’t see him scoring the goals that we are going to need. I’m not after a forward that can score from anywhere, with our wingers I want someone who positions themselves well and scores the tap ins.

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2 minutes ago, robf said:

I'm not sure we can. He's on a season-long loan. I think the recall process is there for the parent club to invoke, not the club he is being loaned to and there's no indication that there is a recall option in January anyhow*

* Unlike Politic's loan which is season-long but did mention there was a recall option for Bolton in January.

However, you can have as many loans as you want (but can only include five in the matchday squad) so there's the option to add more loans if you want.

What is wrong with Lloyd at the moment anyway? He's not been on the bench for the last two games. Have the club said something that I've missed?

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1 hour ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Really? Think only Gibbons would be likely to go. Do you know something?

I don’t know anything, but we have arguably 2 assets in gibbons and Conlon that I would be surprised if clubs weren’t looking at them. Also we may need to move someone on to make room for players the manager wants. 

Edited by PV1973

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