Jump to content

  • OVF player sponsorship 2022

    £10 to enter. More details and a link to donate can be found here

Manager Merry-Go- Round 2021-22


robf
 Share

Recommended Posts

26 minutes ago, Walka003 said:

No cause Alf Ramsey did win a major trophy. The World Cup. He also won a first div title.

Southgate got Middlesbrough relegated.

Guess what,Ramsey's first game in charge of England was in the 1964 European Nations Cup when they lost 5-2 to France and were eliminated.Sound familiar?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


Guess what,Ramsey's first game in charge of England was in the 1964 European Nations Cup when they lost 5-2 to France and were eliminated.Sound familiar?
 
No because the Hungary game wasn't Southgate first game? Its not even close to the same. Southgate has got the best attackers in England's history constricted into a 7 at the back formation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Walka003 said:

No because the Hungary game wasn't Southgate first fame? Its not even close to the same. Southgate has got the best attackers in England's history constricted into a 7 at the back formation

How are they the best in history? Kane maybe, but who else? For example, in the 1950 World Cup (where we were knocked out by the USA) we had Jackie Milburn, Stan Mortenson and Stanley Matthews; in 2006 we had Crouch, Owen, Rooney and Walcott. I could mention dozens more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites




How are they the best in history? Kane maybe, but who else? For example, in the 1950 World Cup (where we were knocked out by the USA) we had Jackie Milburn, Stan Mortenson and Stanley Matthews; in 2006 we had Crouch, Owen, Rooney and Walcott. I could mention dozens more.


I guess it is subjective dependant on age. But in my life time from the people you're talking about, to compare Grealish, Sterling, Saka, Mount to Crouch and Walcott. I'm not sure it's even a contest. Owen fantastic but injured for 85% of his career. Rooney a bona-fide legend.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Walka003 said:

I guess it is subjective dependant on age. But in my life time from the people you're talking about, to compare Grealish, Sterling, Saka, Mount to Crouch and Walcott. I'm not sure it's even a contest. Owen fantastic but injured for 85% of his career. Rooney a bona-fide legend.

 

You are right that there is subjectivity here. That said, I can't see how Grealish and Mount come out ahead of Walcott. (or almost anyone else in the last 70  years - the period I can remember). Admittedly the long decline in Walcott's career might lead people to forget how brilliant he was at the start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:




You are right that there is subjectivity here. That said, I can't see how Grealish and Mount come out ahead of Walcott. (or almost anyone else in the last 70  years - the period I can remember). Admittedly the long decline in Walcott's career might lead people to forget how brilliant he was at the start.


It's one of those "easy to say in hindsight" situations. But looking at Walcot and where mount and Grealish are. They will achieve a lot more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Walka003 said:

No because the Hungary game wasn't Southgate first fame? Its not even close to the same. Southgate has got the best attackers in England's history constricted into a 7 at the back formation

He perhaps should have stuck to that system on Tuesday night then instead of experimenting.We hadn't conceded more than one goal in the previous 25 games before this one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Coyney Valiant said:

Alf Ramsay and to some extent Bobby Robson didn’t play San Marino Andorra Latvia Estonia and so on that’s probably why Southgate has a better win percentage 

The quality of teams was different back then as some of these results under Sir Alf Ramsey show.

Switzerland away  8-1, Northern Ireland home 8-3, USA away 10-0 Norway away 6-1, Austria home 7-0

Bobby Robson's England played Luxembourg and won 9-0 (Mark Chamberlain's debut)

Do we really think that any international team is going to have those results now against those countries?  Things have change in terms of overall standard, it is much much tougher to win international games now.

Sorry to point out some facts, but under Gareth Southgate have NEVER played Latvia or Estonia.

My original post stands, your reply, with regret, has no merit as an exemplar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Essex Vale said:

The quality of teams was different back then as some of these results under Sir Alf Ramsey show.

Switzerland away  8-1, Northern Ireland home 8-3, USA away 10-0 Norway away 6-1, Austria home 7-0

Bobby Robson's England played Luxembourg and won 9-0 (Mark Chamberlain's debut)

Do we really think that any international team is going to have those results now against those countries?  Things have change in terms of overall standard, it is much much tougher to win international games now.

Sorry to point out some facts, but under Gareth Southgate have NEVER played Latvia or Estonia.

My original post stands, your reply, with regret, has no merit as an exemplar

They never played in World Cup group stages were there wasn’t a decent side in the group unlike Southgates England as soon as they eventually come across a decent side in the knock out stages like Croatia ( who France put 4 past in the final ) they get beat 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, prof said:

How are they the best in history? Kane maybe, but who else? For example, in the 1950 World Cup (where we were knocked out by the USA) we had Jackie Milburn, Stan Mortenson and Stanley Matthews; in 2006 we had Crouch, Owen, Rooney and Walcott. I could mention dozens more.

At euro 96 England had shearer sheringham Ferdinand and Fowler. No place for Ian wright, Stan collymore, Andy Cole and Chris Sutton. There was alot of decent strikers about then. Now we have Kane and the back ups are Abraham, Calvert lewin, bamford, rashford people like that nowhere near as good as them. I don't count saka grealish foden Sancho as strikers as for me there wingers or free role players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


On 17/06/2022 at 12:28, Coyney Valiant said:

They never played in World Cup group stages were there wasn’t a decent side in the group unlike Southgates England as soon as they eventually come across a decent side in the knock out stages like Croatia ( who France put 4 past in the final ) they get beat 

For the first two of Ramsey's World Cup campaigns England played zero qualifying games,  they played no one.   In the only World Cup qualifying campaign that England played under Sir Alf, we failed to qualify at all.

Under Gareth Southgate, we have had to play, and beat, either in qualifying or in knock out matches two and a half teams who were formerly World Cup Finalists.  The two team were Hungary and  Sweden, the half was Slovakia, who were part of the former mighty Czechoslovakia former finalists and former European Champions.  Clearly that is some distance from your description of "as soon as they come across a decent side they lose".

Also, one of the teams Southgate's England team had to beat in the qualifying stages for 2022 was Poland, the team that knocked out Ramsey's England in qualifying stages, and are former World Cup semi finalists.

I urge you to check your facts before continuing to call me out in your replies.

 

 

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Essex Vale said:

I urge you to check your facts before continuing to call me out in your replies.

There are facts and there are facts. Describing Hungary, Sweden and Slovakia as "former world cup finalists" may be absolutely true but it's like describing Notts County as FA Cup giants because they won it in 1894.  You're hoisted by your own petard.

I'll admit that your facts are true and stil call you out that Southgate is out of his depth and that we haven't beaten anyone decent for ages.

Edited by gavcradd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have quoted part of my post, and not given full context.  I posted my facts in direct reply to a statement that Southgate's England had never beaten a decent team.  I have not described those teams as current giants. You seeking to attribute remarks to me about Notts County are frankly ridiculous.  You have invented something that has no relevance at all, and which I never said.

I quoted facts which illustrate that those international teams are clearly deserving of the title of "A decent team".  They are decent teams, that Southgate's England have beaten in competition. That was the point of my post to clarify and correct an inaccurate allegation about my earlier post.  

I am very happy to accept that people have different opinions, that is a beauty of a debate about football. I will never deny anyone the right to express an opinion different to mine.  However, when someone decides to rubbish my opinion by quoting non existent facts then I will, of course respond. By all means disagree with me, but don't seek to invent "facts" to support an opinion.

I note that you seek to offer no comment about the other facts I adduced.

I am pleased that  you have introduced some Shakespeare into the forum, it clearly adds to the cultural variety and richness of discussion.  Sadly, your example is utterly erroneous in this case.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, gavcradd said:

There are facts and there are facts. Describing Hungary, Sweden and Slovakia as "former world cup finalists" may be absolutely true but it's like describing Notts County as FA Cup giants because they won it in 1894.  You're hoisted by your own petard.

I'll admit that your facts are true and stil call you out that Southgate is out of his depth and that we haven't beaten anyone decent for ages.

Germany?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Non-existent facts? Inventing facts? Not given full context? Not sure what I've said that's false or is out of context... I'll quote you more fully.

On 18/06/2022 at 16:05, Essex Vale said:

Under Gareth Southgate, we have had to play, and beat, either in qualifying or in knock out matches two and a half teams who were formerly World Cup Finalists.  The two team were Hungary and  Sweden, the half was Slovakia, who were part of the former mighty Czechoslovakia former finalists and former European Champions.  Clearly that is some distance from your description of "as soon as they come across a decent side they lose".

You argue against someone saying that "as soon as they come across a decent side they lose" and point out that they've beaten "Hungary and Sweden... Slovakia". Logically, I can only assume then you mean these are decent teams. You qualify this by saying that they were "formerly World Cup Finalists", despite Hungary last being in a final in 1954, Sweden in 1958 and Czechoslovakia in 1962. 60 years ago minimum. 

You appear to be arguing that a team is decent because they had success a long time ago. I likened it to saying Notts County are a decent FA Cup team because they last won it many many years ago. Again, a fact and logically consistent with your argument. 

Again, what of this is non-existent, made up or out of context?

Maybe this all rests on the etymology and meaning of "decent". In this discussion, I'd use it as a synonym for "at or around England's level".  Maybe the discussion should more be "whenever England come up against another country that are at the same International level as them, they lose". Good at beating minnows and also-rans, not so good at competing with peers.

Edited by gavcradd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


6 hours ago, gavcradd said:

Non-existent facts? Inventing facts? Not given full context? Not sure what I've said that's false or is out of context... I'll quote you more fully.

You argue against someone saying that "as soon as they come across a decent side they lose" and point out that they've beaten "Hungary and Sweden... Slovakia". Logically, I can only assume then you mean these are decent teams. You qualify this by saying that they were "formerly World Cup Finalists", despite Hungary last being in a final in 1954, Sweden in 1958 and Czechoslovakia in 1962. 60 years ago minimum. 

You appear to be arguing that a team is decent because they had success a long time ago. I likened it to saying Notts County are a decent FA Cup team because they last won it many many years ago. Again, a fact and logically consistent with your argument. 

Again, what of this is non-existent, made up or out of context?

Maybe this all rests on the etymology and meaning of "decent". In this discussion, I'd use it as a synonym for "at or around England's level".  Maybe the discussion should more be "whenever England come up against another country that are at the same International level as them, they lose". Good at beating minnows and also-rans, not so good at competing with peers.

There is so much I could say in response to this nonsense reply, but life is too short.  In brief under Southgate England have beaten :   Scotland Netherlands Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, USA, Belgium, Poland, Croatia, Germany, Denmark, Ukraine, and lots of others.

The list is quite sufficient to address your ill informed text

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 18/06/2022 at 16:46, Essex Vale said:

You have quoted part of my post, and not given full context.  I posted my facts in direct reply to a statement that Southgate's England had never beaten a decent team.  I have not described those teams as current giants. You seeking to attribute remarks to me about Notts County are frankly ridiculous.  You have invented something that has no relevance at all, and which I never said.

I quoted facts which illustrate that those international teams are clearly deserving of the title of "A decent team".  They are decent teams, that Southgate's England have beaten in competition. That was the point of my post to clarify and correct an inaccurate allegation about my earlier post.  

I am very happy to accept that people have different opinions, that is a beauty of a debate about football. I will never deny anyone the right to express an opinion different to mine.  However, when someone decides to rubbish my opinion by quoting non existent facts then I will, of course respond. By all means disagree with me, but don't seek to invent "facts" to support an opinion.

I note that you seek to offer no comment about the other facts I adduced.

I am pleased that  you have introduced some Shakespeare into the forum, it clearly adds to the cultural variety and richness of discussion.  Sadly, your example is utterly erroneous in this case.

I mean, purely for the use of the word adduced, this is a great post...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Reporting Posts and Ignoring Users

    • Admin don't read everything. Don't assume we'll spot rule breaking. Please report posts and we'll act ASAP. If you're logged in use the orange report post button. If you're not logged in, please - Contact us here
    • If you can't get on with another user you can "ignore" them. Follow the link, type in their username and save - Click here
    • Check with admin if you wish to sell/auction any items. We're happy to support good causes but check first - Contact us here
  • Friends of OVF




×
×
  • Create New...