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Covolan v Stone


darren1810
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Given the debate on here about our two keepers ( I'm firmly in the Lucas camp ) I thought this was an interesting article from one of the greatest ever goalkeepers.  

I'm in firm agreement with Schmeichel that you have a number one. Yes they aren't undroppable that is ludicrous but to chop, change and give uncertainty is asking for trouble.

Lucas all the way for me .

 

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I think Covolan himself has done all he can to answer the critics such as myself who said his place was in doubt.

He was excellent on Tuesday evening and as a Vale fan I hope he continues in that form and makes my suggestion that Clarke should consider dropping him look even more foolish.

:upthevale:

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34 minutes ago, robf said:

I think Covolan himself has done all he can to answer the critics such as myself who said his place was in doubt.

He was excellent on Tuesday evening and as a Vale fan I hope he continues in that form and makes my suggestion that Clarke should consider dropping him look even more foolish.

:upthevale:

I don't think you were foolish Rob at all , we have to have the questions. 

Personally I feel you stick by a main number one. People wanted him dropped after Northampton. 

You can't be having either keeper on pins about one mistake and you are out. 

Say Lucas plays 15, Stone 8, Lucas 7, Stone 12 etc .. that is not the way forward. Defence would be uncertain as they need to strike up a bond. 

I agree totally with the article and Lucas is the main man but not immune to scrutiny. However as a specialist position he's under far more scrutiny than outfield players who couldn't pass the ball to a white shirt the other night 

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11 minutes ago, darren1810 said:

You can't be having either keeper on pins about one mistake and you are out. 

I've said this on another thread but I'll make it again. My thoughts on Covolan weren't to drop him on one mistake but on several. 

I totally agree you can't drop keepers after one mistake but I think the flipside of that is there comes a point after several where you have to consider it. 

It would have been the same if Stone had been brought in. I would have expected him to be told he was now number one and he would be given a run so not to worry about the occasional error.

However, thankfully it doesn't matter too much now as Covolan did great in midweek. Long may it continue.

 

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I'm a massive fan of Lucas but think the penalty save covered up another shaky first-half. As it was given, I commented that this was the chance to redeem himself. He was caught with bad passing one or twice. He clearly has a talent for penalty saves as he did well in the playoff final too. All the classic 'stand over the ball, take ages to walk to line, bang the crossbar' stuff.

The penalty save seemed to boost his confidence, as before that he seemed to be overthinking everything. Second half his cross-claiming was pretty good and didn't have many shots to deal with, bar the goal, which came at him quickly from 8 yards away and he couldn't do a great deal about.

The Vale fans gave him an excellent reception so he's getting backed. There's a really good keeper in there and hopefully his better second half marks a steadier run. We don't need shot-stopping abilities at the level of Alnwick; his high positioning, passing, and cross-catching help to ensure he doesn't face many shots. 

I think the main thing is that Lucas, for all of his nerve-inducing habits, hasn't directly cost us many points this year. You could argue Sutton's 4th, Northampton red, but bar that you're struggling to point at dropped points and directly link to to a mistake he's made. It's weird. 

Edited by Joe B

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I don’t think the fact that certain errors haven’t led to dropped points should be considered. 

They are errors and they are costing us goals, he’s been lucky in the fact that we have been scoring for fun to cover this up. Imagine this last season. The errors would have cost far more points. 

I don’t agree that his positioning means he faces less shots either. Again I think this is down to how we set up as a team and how well we have done. Even against mansfield where we were awful, covolan besides the penalty didn’t have much in terms of shot stopping to do, which I think says good things about of defence.

I think he earned us a point on Tuesday, but every time I start to think he’s turned a corner an error crops up, or a very nearly moment, i just don’t feel safe with him in nets. 

I think as in the opening post, we do have to stick with him though. The team is doing very well in the league, he just go in team of the week and chopping and changing over and over again is good for nobody. 

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18 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

I don’t think the fact that certain errors haven’t led to dropped points should be considered. 

Of course it should. It implies, whilst mistakes are made, they aren't game-altering. We're a good side and his mistakes aren't impacting that to any significant extent. Keepers will make mistakes at some point, but the key thing is that they're not huge and altering games. 

18 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

They are errors and they are costing us goals, he’s been lucky in the fact that we have been scoring for fun to cover this up. Imagine this last season. The errors would have cost far more points. 

I don’t agree that his positioning means he faces less shots either. Again I think this is down to how we set up as a team and how well we have done. Even against mansfield where we were awful, covolan besides the penalty didn’t have much in terms of shot stopping to do, which I think says good things about of defence.

Surely it can be considered that Covolan is part and parcel of how we set up and how well we've done? He is aggressive with crosses, allows defenders a passing option when they are pressed, and starts nice and high when we are in possession, allowing us to press up the pitch, maintain a high line, and not be too fearful of balls over the top. These are all key cogs in how we set up as a team.

We simply couldn't do any of that last year. Crosses weren't claimed, pressure resulted in hoofs/losing the ball, and we couldn't sit high and squeeze because Brown steadfastly refused to come off his line (and when he did, he was beaten).

Think it's unfair to deprive him of any agency/role in us not conceding many chances, but then completely lump on his mistakes. A defence is always dependent on their relationship with their goalkeeper. To remove him from the equation entirely is harsh. 

It's entirely reasonable to feel nervy with him (I do), but I think unreasonable to claim all the success is in spite of him. He's played every minute in a team 4th in the table and have only lost three games, all by one goal. 

Edited by Joe B
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Will happily admit that the positives that Lucas brings to us have to be balanced with at least competency in terms of shot-stopping. If he continues to underperform in this regard, and his mistakes begin to cost us points, then of course you look at changes.

I think that the goalkeeping role has developed significantly, where they are now part of the team a lot more than they used to be; there are fewer and fewer pure shot stoppers, with managers seemingly preferring keepers who contribute to the shots not coming in in the first place (claiming crosses, rushing out, passing the ball under pressure), as opposed to someone who can save shots when they come by the bucketload (see Scott Brown's Port Vale career).

In an ideal world Lucas would do the 'contribute to the team not giving up shots' stuff AND be somewhat decent at stopping shots when they come in. Up to now, he's underdelivered on the latter. I just think the metrics in which Clarke/Flitters/You Matrix measures a goalkeeper go beyond 'does he save the shots that come his way?'. That's obviously a crucial part, but Lucas offers more. 

Edited by Joe B

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Covolan clearly has a much higher ability level. The only question mark is consistency. I feel we will rave about him for a bit, then he will hit a duff patch. Even so, he is showing himself as a worthy No.1 at this level. He is a bit lucky that his really duff performances were away early in the season. 

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In the first half on one occasion Covolan sliced the ball into touch. The problem was he had the ball passed back to him on a soaking wet pitch with a player bearing down on him. Was that his mistake??

I think he may have cost us a point at Sutton although that last goal was real team effort by all the defenders. The Barrow goal may well have been saved but it wasn’t a horrendous error. What other goals have been down to him?  My memory is not great!

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Still way too early to form a solid opinion on either keeper, certainly Stone.  I agree with the No.1 / No.2 scenario but there has to be a point in time where your place is up for grabs, otherwise you can’t claim to have true competition for places and risk a player becoming dissatisfied with being a permanent bench warmer.

Having said all that, criticism of Covolan has been fair in my view.  Of course praise in equal measure where it’s due.  Tuesday nights performance was worthy of praise in the main.

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Most of the goals we have conceded have been crossed in low or high, passing at least one defender on the way. People just say oh that was mistake, then forget about it. Covalan makes a mistake and he has to play amazingly for 3 games straight after to absolve himself. We should just support the players and be beyond doubt that they are trying their best, everything we see DC sees and has a plan to put it right, and the team is good enough to get us out of this league, including Cov at his CURRENT level, not even factoring in his development and honing.

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On 21/10/2021 at 12:54, Jacko51 said:

In the first half on one occasion Covolan sliced the ball into touch. The problem was he had the ball passed back to him on a soaking wet pitch with a player bearing down on him. Was that his mistake??

I think he may have cost us a point at Sutton although that last goal was real team effort by all the defenders. The Barrow goal may well have been saved but it wasn’t a horrendous error. What other goals have been down to him?  My memory is not great!

I'm not sure that he sliced it into touch more that he smacked it out in fury as it was passed back to him, as you say, with a defender bearing down on him.  It just looks worse as it's the keeper knocking it out.

There were lots of misplaced passes made on Tuesday, Jones knocked a terrible ball across the back line between the defenders and keeper that was intercepted but came to nothing but there doesn't seem to be the focus on that.

Not sure that the last goal was down to Covolan vs Sutton, there were a pack of players in front of him, what was he supposed to do.  If he'd stayed on his line the ball would most probably have beaten him.  I've watched the game back and I'm still unsure how we managed to lose it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Jacko51 said:

If Lucas had let in the goal De Gea has tonight some of our fans would have had him taken out and shot!

To be fair, if the whole team had played like Utd tonight we’d have wanted them all shot! Two goals conceded that were straight out of L2 let alone the Champions League.

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7 minutes ago, Biddulph_PV said:

To be fair, if the whole team had played like Utd tonight we’d have wanted them all shot! Two goals conceded that were straight out of L2 let alone the Champions League.

Nathan Smith is better than Harry Maguire.

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