Jump to content

Northern Ireland


Davebrad
 Share

Recommended Posts

Advert:


15 hours ago, Davebrad said:

i don't know why i should be 300yrs old? as to the deaths and diseases fair enough, but just possibly in fighting of local tribes etc would have occured... i still say name any country now that is the worst for our having been there. Law, government,  infrastructure, education, medicines,

Dave, I understand the point that you are trying to make, and this is a little off topic from this thread, but please try to consider this:

The view that you seem to be taking - that British involvement in other countries during the colonial period, was overwhelmingly good, i.e. the examples you gave (Law, government,  infrastructure, education, medicines), is looking entirely through a British telescope at it. In doing that you, you are making the assumptions that:

1) linear progress towards Westernized conceptions (i.e. how you view these things) of things like law and govt was inevitable, and Britain "just initiated it".

2) The people subject to these changes in these countries would find them to be favourable to them. Which is clearly not the case. Colonial and indeed post-colonial history has shown over and over again that access to much of the above didn't necessarily make life better for ordinary people.

To give an example of what I mean - it would be wrong to claim that there was no system of law, or government or education in Africa prior to colonial times - it just looked very, very different to the systems that we were used to in Britain at the time. It was relevant, and specific to the lives that people led at the time. Why need formal 'laws', if there are known and understood informal traditions that form a substitute that work just as well? Why need medicine to treat certain illnesses, or diseases, if some of those diseases didn't exist in the first place (i.e. they were imported there)?

At a base level, it comes back to the "my law is better than your law" which is entirely the basis of colonialism. At best, a paternalistic "we will bring civilization to the uncivilized", at worst, a naked power grab.

Anyway apologies to all for sidetracking. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 16/10/2021 at 20:20, Davebrad said:

put TCM or Taking Pictures on tv, a box comes on saying "we apologise for contents in this film as attitudes changed" or word similar...my father in the 50's had a black lab so he called him blackie, also in the 50/60's on a film a note in a boarding house window said "no n***ers, but things accepted then are not now. Look at all the statues being removed because the person made his money in slavery, but was rememored for building a hospital ,school etc. the last insance i've seen is a village in Wales is changing its name of Nelson because Nelson has been linked to slavery...

  What next take him off his coloum and put george floyd there... you can only apologise so many times.

Foaming about fake news, the gammon way.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


10 hours ago, The_godfather said:

Dave, I understand the point that you are trying to make, and this is a little off topic from this thread, but please try to consider this:

The view that you seem to be taking - that British involvement in other countries during the colonial period, was overwhelmingly good, i.e. the examples you gave (Law, government,  infrastructure, education, medicines), is looking entirely through a British telescope at it. In doing that you, you are making the assumptions that:

1) linear progress towards Westernized conceptions (i.e. how you view these things) of things like law and govt was inevitable, and Britain "just initiated it".

2) The people subject to these changes in these countries would find them to be favourable to them. Which is clearly not the case. Colonial and indeed post-colonial history has shown over and over again that access to much of the above didn't necessarily make life better for ordinary people.

To give an example of what I mean - it would be wrong to claim that there was no system of law, or government or education in Africa prior to colonial times - it just looked very, very different to the systems that we were used to in Britain at the time. It was relevant, and specific to the lives that people led at the time. Why need formal 'laws', if there are known and understood informal traditions that form a substitute that work just as well? Why need medicine to treat certain illnesses, or diseases, if some of those diseases didn't exist in the first place (i.e. they were imported there)?

At a base level, it comes back to the "my law is better than your law" which is entirely the basis of colonialism. At best, a paternalistic "we will bring civilization to the uncivilized", at worst, a naked power grab.

Anyway apologies to all for sidetracking. 

fair points, but and i'm not arguing , but isn't this with modern day hindsight... i mentioned the industrial revolution and then the Victorians who invented things to make things easier and cheaper, to make life easier, and admittedly a fortune for themselves, It was a way of life  to them "to make brass", and so becoming the Golden Era of the Empire. Then the missionaries to go out into the world etc... 

  You say a land grab maybe so, but the benefits must be recognised aswell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, WV said:
i mentioned this because it was reported in the Times...
 
according to the namesake’s association with slavery

A Welsh village that shares its name with Lord Nelson has been listed in a dossier of “problematic” places because of association with the slave trade.

As part of a national audit commissioned by the Welsh parliament, councils were asked to compile lists of streets, monuments and buildings named after figures linked to slavery.

The data was reviewed and graded according to the namesake’s association with slavery.

Nelson, or Ffos y Gerddinen, in Caerphilly, ten miles north of Cardiff, was evaluated as two out of three, meaning the committee thought Lord Nelson’s “culpability” for the slavery trade remained uncertain.

Lord Nelson is listed in the dossier as he is viewed as a figure who “opposed abolition of the slave trade or slavery”.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Giving him a legal trial would have been a good start.

  At noon on Saturday 29th April, Connolly supported the majority view of the leaders that they should surrender as he ‘could not bear to see his brave boys burnt to death’. His expectation was that the Rising`s organisers would be shot and the rest set free. Under military escort, Connolly was carried to the Red Cross hospital at Dublin Castle where hours later he signed Pearse`s surrender order on behalf of the Irish Citizen Army. He was court-martialled there, propped up in his bed, on 9th May. At his trial he read a brief hand-written statement which stated that: ‘The cause of Irish freedom is safe … as long as … Irishmen are ready to die endeavouring to win [it]’. His execution took place at Kilmainham Gaol after dawn on 12th May – he was the last of the rebel leaders to face the firing squad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


29 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Where does it say they're going to change the town's name?

the report i saw said this had come up and the council said it would have to be voted on by the residents, but its noted on namesakes association with slavery... so its on the hit list. i listed the Times article as it might be more acceptable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Davebrad said:

  At noon on Saturday 29th April, Connolly supported the majority view of the leaders that they should surrender as he ‘could not bear to see his brave boys burnt to death’. His expectation was that the Rising`s organisers would be shot and the rest set free. Under military escort, Connolly was carried to the Red Cross hospital at Dublin Castle where hours later he signed Pearse`s surrender order on behalf of the Irish Citizen Army. He was court-martialled there, propped up in his bed, on 9th May. At his trial he read a brief hand-written statement which stated that: ‘The cause of Irish freedom is safe … as long as … Irishmen are ready to die endeavouring to win [it]’. His execution took place at Kilmainham Gaol after dawn on 12th May – he was the last of the rebel leaders to face the firing squad

Are they all your own words, Dave?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Connelly wasn’t strictly speaking in the IRA. The Citzens’ Army was an international socialist organisation which came about after the Dublin lockouts where strikers and their families were kept from starving by the donations from trade unionists from England, noteably Manchester and Liverpool. Connelly was actually born in Edinburgh (Cowgate) and spent much of his youth organising Italian dockers in New York. He was fluent in Italian. He had no formal education but his wife was an intellectual and wrote his speeches for him. There was considerable support for Irish home rule at the time in Britain. Of course, the Easter Rising occurred during the First World War where 86,000 Unionists and 210,000 nationalists lost their lives fighting for “the freedom of small nations”. Hard line Unionists make great play of the blood sacrifice of their community, understanably so, but it tends to be forgotten that Lloyd George had promised home rule (to Redmond) a promise that was later broken of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


9 hours ago, Davebrad said:

fair points, but and i'm not arguing , but isn't this with modern day hindsight... i mentioned the industrial revolution and then the Victorians who invented things to make things easier and cheaper, to make life easier, and admittedly a fortune for themselves, It was a way of life  to them "to make brass", and so becoming the Golden Era of the Empire. Then the missionaries to go out into the world etc... 

  You say a land grab maybe so, but the benefits must be recognised aswell.

When you talking about the Victorians making life easier, Dave, have you looked at the social history of the industrial revolution?  The very young kids who were forced to work in textile factories crawling under machines at serious risk of injury.  The spread of unplanned towns around the factories that provided the most appalling living conditions for those who lived there.  The ludicrously short life expectancy of the working population.  The high level of infant mortality because of the dirt and filth of these spreading towns?  I doubt you would have thought your life was being made easier if you'd lived then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 17/10/2021 at 17:05, Davebrad said:

you don't get nout for nout, and they benefited in later years...

So you'd be OK with that today as long as there were benefits in the future? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Reporting Posts and Ignoring Users

    Admin don't read everything. Don't assume we'll spot rule breaking. Please report posts and we'll act on ASAP. If you're logged in use the orange report post button. If you're not logged in, please use the contact form

    If you can't get on with another user you can "ignore" them. Follow the link, type in their username and save - Click here

    Check with admin if you wish to sell/auction any items. We're happy to support good causes but check first - Contact us here

  • Friends of OVF




×
×
  • Create New...