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Match Thread: Sutton United v Port Vale


Fosse69

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Smith has played under five permanent managers at Vale and a couple of caretakers. He has played over 260 games since his debut just over five seasons ago. He has been nigh on ever present during that time. So either we’ve had some appalling managers whose judgment of a player was seriously flawed or the lad has been a very decent player at this level. 
Decent player I agree but can he part of a team who take us up 3 leagues .
I am not convinced he is .
However is a excellent mid table league player at our level ,let's hope he can along with the rest of this seasons squad delivera top 3 finish if so this love in with be justified if not maybe not
UTV

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24 minutes ago, Breadwinner said:

Decent player I agree but can he part of a team who take us up 3 leagues .
I am not convinced he is .
However is a excellent mid table league player at our level ,let's hope he can along with the rest of this seasons squad delivera top 3 finish if so this love in with be justified if not maybe not
UTV

When you say take us up three leagues are you suggesting that we should have anyone playing for us who could ply their trade in the EPL.? I’d suggest that none of our squad are capable of playing in the EPL, but definitely in L1. If we had a billionaire that purchased the club, how many of our current squad do you think they would keep, on our journey to the EPL. 

Edited by Playa Amodores
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1 hour ago, Breadwinner said:

Decent player I agree but can he part of a team who take us up 3 leagues .
I am not convinced he is .
However is a excellent mid table league player at our level ,let's hope he can along with the rest of this seasons squad delivera top 3 finish if so this love in with be justified if not maybe not
UTV

How many of our current squad are good enough to play in the premier league then? 

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1 hour ago, Breadwinner said:

Decent player I agree but can he part of a team who take us up 3 leagues .
I am not convinced he is .
However is a excellent mid table league player at our level ,let's hope he can along with the rest of this seasons squad delivera top 3 finish if so this love in with be justified if not maybe not
UTV

Realistically though how many of our current squad are good enough to play in the premier league then? It’s about using players to get you to a level and then rebuilding, whilst jettisoning those that can’t go the full journey.  Like the stages of a rocket as it goes up for want of a better analogy

Edited by PV1973
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11 minutes ago, PV1973 said:

How many of our current squad are good enough to play in the premier league then? 

Concentrate on having enough  in the squad to play in L1 having got us there. 

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Realistically though how many of our current squad are good enough to play in the premier league then? It’s about using players to get you to a level and then rebuilding, whilst jettisoning those that can’t go the full journey.  Like the stages of a rocket as it goes up for want of a better analogy
All of them if they believe
We already have a winning mentality stored into the players why can't they with encouragement from all supporters bound there way all the way up through the leagues .
ID say straight away Jamie Proctors a league one player he is most excellent ,Dan Jones has the ability be a top player those 75 yard balls are above league 2 level ,Garrity a goalscoring midfielder who looks after his body with what he puts in it,he is only going get better theres 3 straight away who could easily go into stokes team for example cause there all above there level in my opinion .
Worrall he as it aswell Politic has it I think Cass will have it also,Conlon has the quality play in the championship and Smith has it as sometimes his performances are above our level .
UTV

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2 hours ago, Breadwinner said:

Decent player I agree but can he part of a team who take us up 3 leagues .
I am not convinced he is .
However is a excellent mid table league player at our level ,let's hope he can along with the rest of this seasons squad delivera top 3 finish if so this love in with be justified if not maybe not
UTV

Oh well at least he has gone from Non league player to a mid table league two player,maybe at some point he will get the credit he deserves......we live in hope

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True, but no point going away from home and scoring three if you're going to concede four.


There is a point, its called entertainment. I'd much rather see us lose 4 3 than 1 0 playing out a dull boring game.

I leave a 4 3 loss away from home having twice thrown away a lead frustrated but having enjoyed moments of the game and having appreciated play from both sides.

I leave a 1 0 loss away from home where we have done nothing but attempt to cancel out the opposition with the hope of a goal against the run of play annoyed because I have wasted my day, seen little to no chances.

Defensive play, although necessary at some periods in games and in a teams evolution, should in my opinion be discouraged in whatever way possible.

Would you rather be a Burnley fan or a Norwich fan for the last 5 years. For me it's Norwich every day of the week. I feel sorry for the people who would rather be a Burnley fan.
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It's better than an OK start, it's a great start.
You can't really draw many parallels between Saturday and last season's collapses as the team is completely different, the management setup is completely different, and it hasn't happened under Clarke before. We did it to someone else last week. It happens in football. Not a sign of anything.
Whilst those 9 goals you've mentioned aren't great (although 2 were deflected and 2 were own goals), in the other 8 games we've conceded 3. 
I'm sorry how can you not draw parallels between last Saturday and last seasons collapse against Tranmere.

Similar points tally, similar fan confidence in the team, similar loss from a comfortable position.

On the opposite side of the argument as you have said we do have a new manager and team.

I think that Clarke has built a good team and has instilled a confidence in the players but I do think we had that last season at this point too. I think it is more likely that we will kick on and continue to press on and I am optimistic for the season ahead. At the same time we need to temper expectations so that if things don't go as planned we don't generate the depressive atmosphere of last autumn/winter.

I worry that a long term injury to someone like Proctor, Worrall or Gibbons etc. could cause us all sorts of problems that combined with a couple more turnarounds against us could lead to another complete loss of confidence.

I am optimistic and reasonably confident that we are going to have a really good season and that that won't happen but the rose tinted arrogance of some people on here really worries me. The difference between a great season and an awful one can hinge on one small pivotal moment. Sometimes you need to ride the wave and enjoy it, the wave needs to be more than just a small swell in the ocean first, otherwise it can lead to huge dissapointment.
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38 minutes ago, wotsyobeef said:

I'm sorry how can you not draw parallels between last Saturday and last seasons collapse against Tranmere.

Similar points tally, similar fan confidence in the team, similar loss from a comfortable position.

On the opposite side of the argument as you have said we do have a new manager and team.

I think that Clarke has built a good team and has instilled a confidence in the players but I do think we had that last season at this point too. I think it is more likely that we will kick on and continue to press on and I am optimistic for the season ahead. At the same time we need to temper expectations so that if things don't go as planned we don't generate the depressive atmosphere of last autumn/winter.

I worry that a long term injury to someone like Proctor, Worrall or Gibbons etc. could cause us all sorts of problems that combined with a couple more turnarounds against us could lead to another complete loss of confidence.

I am optimistic and reasonably confident that we are going to have a really good season and that that won't happen but the rose tinted arrogance of some people on here really worries me. The difference between a great season and an awful one can hinge on one small pivotal moment. Sometimes you need to ride the wave and enjoy it, the wave needs to be more than just a small swell in the ocean first, otherwise it can lead to huge dissapointment.

Tranmere loss entirely different. We were winning at an unsustainable rate last year, conceding lots of great chances and relying on Scott Brown bailing us out with an immense run of form. It was inevitable we'd start losing - some on here called it before it happened, to much chagrin.

This year we've been winning games we should be winning based on performance. Our keeper hasn't even been more than decent at best (arguably he's been a weak point) and we're still 4th. We should have more points still.

The reason I feel different is that Clarke + Crosby became a team, we've had literal title-winning form. Yes, there will be blips on the road, which happens in football and especially in League 2, and double especially when you concede two OGs in two weeks and are without two central defenders who provide aerial presence.

You may deem it 'rose-tinted arrogance' but I'll take 13 wins + 5 draws (44 points) in 22 games since Clarke and Crosby teamed up. That's almost half a season in which we've averaged 2 points a game; good enough for 92 across a season. We aren't going to finish with that, but please forgive my arrogance for looking at 22 games and not panicking because we lost a game which bears resemblance in scoreline to a game lost by a different manager, coaching set up, and virtually different squad of players last year.

Is there a chance everything collapses? I guess, just as there's a chance we win every game from now until the end of the season. That's football. I think 2 points a game for half of a season is enough evidence to avoid some of the fretting we've seen on here after a frustrating but ultimately freak loss.

Edited by Joe B

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How anyone can be critical of Smith just now is beyond me.  Of the 3 current CB's he's by far the best out and out defender, despite not maybe being the tallest of the 3.  Jones and Cass don't even come close in this regard.  What those 2 players have, as we've seen, is more ability with the ball, Jones has a great pass on him whilst Cass carries the ball really well and can cross.  So what I think we have is a great blend with those 3 players and I don't think it's fair, on current form to be critical of any of them.

That said, non of the 3 have the raw power and size of Legge, who must also be one of the best headers of a ball in this division.  Clarke recognised in his post match interview that it was a game that needed a Legge or Martin, but neither were available sadly.

We've seen some big teams already this season but Sutton looked the biggest.  Not sure if this will be a continuing trend or if we've played all the big sides now, either way we've mainly held our own and if that continues we'll be in a good place.

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Tranmere loss entirely different. We were winning at an unsustainable rate last year, conceding lots of great chances and relying on Scott Brown bailing us out with an immense run of form. It was inevitable we'd start losing - some on here called it before it happened, to much chagrin.
This year we've been winning games we should be winning based on performance. Our keeper hasn't even been more than decent at best (arguably he's been a weak point) and we're still 4th. We should have more points still.
The reason I feel different is that Clarke + Crosby became a team, we've had literal title-winning form. Yes, there will be blips on the road, which happens in football and especially in League 2, and double especially when you concede two OGs in two weeks and are without two central defenders who provide aerial presence.
You may deem it 'rose-tinted arrogance' but I'll take 13 wins + 5 draws (44 points) in 22 games since Clarke and Crosby teamed up. That's almost half a season in which we've averaged 2 points a game; good enough for 92 across a season. We aren't going to finish with that, but please forgive my arrogance for looking at 22 games and not panicking because we lost a game which bears resemblance in scoreline to a game lost by a different manager, coaching set up, and virtually different squad of players last year.
Is there a chance everything collapses? I guess, just as there's a chance we win every game from now until the end of the season. That's football. I think 2 points a game for half of a season is enough evidence to avoid some of the fretting we've seen on here after a frustrating but ultimately freak loss.


And we had taken 39 from Askeys previous 22 games at this same point last season.

I think we are going to be up there in the mix come the end of the season. After an initial bit of uncertainty, Clarke has certainly won me over. There is no need to panic we should be happy if not delighted with our current progress, but in some peoples heads its like we are already promoted as champions.

Browns form at the start of last season kept us in games but was similar to what it had been through most of his career, it only fell off a cliff when we had a run of being unable to hold onto a lead and he seemed to lose all confidence.

You could argue that Proctor's current form is unsustainable and is what has been currently keeping us up there, completely against his career history. I hope he stays fit and carries on as he is.

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2 hours ago, wotsyobeef said:


 

 


And we had taken 39 from Askeys previous 22 games at this same point last season.

I think we are going to be up there in the mix come the end of the season. After an initial bit of uncertainty, Clarke has certainly won me over. There is no need to panic we should be happy if not delighted with our current progress, but in some peoples heads its like we are already promoted as champions.

Browns form at the start of last season kept us in games but was similar to what it had been through most of his career, it only fell off a cliff when we had a run of being unable to hold onto a lead and he seemed to lose all confidence.

You could argue that Proctor's current form is unsustainable and is what has been currently keeping us up there, completely against his career history. I hope he stays fit and carries on as he is.

 

Agree with you mate but your last paragraph about Proctor.

It's against his career history yes but this is the first time he's playing league 2 ( give or take a few loan moves ) .

Could be similar to you know who in that when he's higher up the food chain he's more of the buffer and provider than a goalscorer. 

I'm expecting 15 from him. He's actually missed at least 3 or 4 glorious chances too so he could easily be on 8 or 9. 

 

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15 hours ago, PV1973 said:

How many of our current squad are good enough to play in the premier league then? 

After watching Sterling Kane and Shaw playing for England last night quite a few i would imagine.

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9 hours ago, wotsyobeef said:

And we had taken 39 from Askeys previous 22 games at this same point last season.

I think we are going to be up there in the mix come the end of the season. After an initial bit of uncertainty, Clarke has certainly won me over. There is no need to panic we should be happy if not delighted with our current progress, but in some peoples heads its like we are already promoted as champions.

Browns form at the start of last season kept us in games but was similar to what it had been through most of his career, it only fell off a cliff when we had a run of being unable to hold onto a lead and he seemed to lose all confidence.

You could argue that Proctor's current form is unsustainable and is what has been currently keeping us up there, completely against his career history. I hope he stays fit and carries on as he is.

 

Brown was performing way above the rate of any lower league keeper. We weren't playing well at all and the wheels inevitably came off.

I'd agree Proctor's run was unsustainable if he wasn't bottling great chances every week. There's a good argument to make that he's underperformed based on the absolute sitters he's put wide. 

Askey simply didn't have the CV to suggest he could put runs together consistently like the one Clarke has had us on. Clarke has 4 promotions in the 8 seasons he's stayed at one club. The other 4 seasons were;

  • a consolidation year with Salisbury sandwiched by promotions
  • two seasons in League 1 with Rovers in 10th and 13th after back to back promotions
  • a 13th finish in the COVID season which, based on Walsall's form since, looks like a miracle.

He's assisted by Crosby, who was with Nigel Adkins for back to back promotions, Premier League jobs, and a number of Championship jobs, and overseen by Flitcroft, who has managed in the Championship, and has a promotion, 4th, 7th, and 8th placed finish at this level.

Another point is that conceding late isn't a pattern under Clarke as it had been under Askey, even before the Tranmere game. I'm also not concerned as we're performing far better at present than we were preceding the Tranmere game. We got unlucky on Saturday. 

People have all had a laugh about winning the league and walking it, and no one genuinely thinks that they're a given. I just think we're a good side, with an excellent management setup, who had a bit of bad luck on Saturday, and we'll be sound. 

 

Edited by Joe B
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Lets see where we are after 23 games,personally i think we will be in the top 3 and that will give us a great shot at it for the remaining 23 games.

It would be nice to have a little cushion as well and open up a gap between us and 8th and then us and 4th

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On 11/10/2021 at 23:01, Beech said:

But there's a reason he's still playing at League Two level. He's not a bad player. But Legge even at 36 is better.

It depends what qualities you judge your CB on. Legge is head on a stick, one of the best in the division but he can't do much else.

I would argue we have looked overall a better team since Legge's injury due the qualities of Smith, Cass and Jones combined. Results would probably back it up if I could be bothered to go and review the results and line ups to try and prove my point.

Its horse for courses. We just lack height in general when playing teams like Sutton without Legge, Martin & Walker. Thats why I was shocked DC took Proctor off but if he's managing an injury then fair enough.

Its going to be a very interesting conundrum for DC to solve when they are fit.

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