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Booing your own players.. Political


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On 30/09/2021 at 02:30, geosname said:

It seems to be a simple problem made difficult by a third party.

We have one group making a gesture, for whatever reason, on the pitch...... nothing wrong with that.

We have another group making a gesture from the stands.... nothing wrong with that.

The third party seem to be saying one group don't have a right to make their gesture. Let's call them the sideliners,. The sideliners don't agree with one group enough to join in with their gesture but disagree with the other group so much they want them shut down.

The solution...... let both groups make their gesture.

We could complicate matters by saying the sideliners are making a gesture but that entails other groups being involved, making gestures against the gestures of a gesture.

We also have other groups who prefer to stand on the pitch rather than kneel and point to the respect badge on their arm.This may be the answer to avoid causing any division which we witnessed at Wembley the other night?

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On 13/10/2021 at 17:54, WV said:

It may have afforded Kaepernick an opportunity based on his athleticism and talent in sport and no doubt hard work but he is protesting that on a whole the black community aren't offered the same opportunities as the white communities are. 

Kaepernick is a race activist and no matter what the USA does in terms of race equality it will not be good enough for him.

Somethings to consider, there are more black billionaires and millionaires in the USA than any other country in the world, perhaps even more than all other countries combined and 60% of African Americans are described as middle class so there is much opportunity for black people in the USA. The Affirmative Action legislation of 1961 in the USA aimed to right the wrongs of the past.

The same opportunities are open to all people in the USA as evinced by an African American becoming President for two terms from 2009 to 2017. However, true equality of opportunity is not attainable as people of all ethnicities are different in terms of Knowledge, education, abilities etc. Not everyone is an Obama or a Kaepernick.

On 13/10/2021 at 17:54, WV said:

That on top of the way black males are treated by the police in America is why BLM exists.

The crime stats show there is no racism or discrimination by US Police against black people, this has been discussed before on OVF and you can dig out the facts yourself. A simple fact is that Chinese and Indian people do not get involved with the Police for serious crime anywhere near as much as Black or White people.

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On 14/10/2021 at 03:39, Joe B said:

Surely he did that by being one of the 0.0001% best of his generation at American Football?

I hate this idea that you can't criticise things your country is doing if you, as an individual and due to exceptional talent, luck, and hard work, have done well. It's nonsensical and a very easy tactic to stop people with platforms offering criticism. You're not allowed to sympathise with the plight of your fellow citizen if you're lucky enough to have succeeded. Daft.

If you have a platform like Colin Kaepernick you better be sure that what you're saying and protesting about is absolutely correct and warranted and the reaction to his actions suggest many people disagree with him.

The USA is actively trying to right the wrongs of the past, it started with the Affirmative Action legislation in 1961 if not before. Perhaps the rights aren't happening fast enough for Colin Kaepernick and the people he listens but they are happening. Perhaps CK and Co. are just blind to the progress that's been made.

As a race activist, CK together with organizations like BLM are promoting oppression, victimization, division and importance of skin color rather than tolerance, progress, opportunity and character.  IMHO It is an extremely divisive and dangerous agenda.

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On 14/10/2021 at 04:06, Jacko51 said:

Did you read the link to the EFL post referring to all clubs, not just Vale???  Taking the knee here is NOT a sign of support for BLM. 

I didn't know about it and judging from the reactions of many football fans on the internet many aren't aware of the EFL post. I will say again, BLM is a worldwide movement which is strongly associated with taking the knee and massively overshadows anything the EFL does in this context.

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Just now, Paul6754 said:

I didn't know about it and judging from the reactions of many football fans on the internet many aren't aware of the EFL post. I will say again, BLM is a worldwide movement which is strongly associated with taking the knee and massively overshadows anything the EFL does in this context.

Ask any player at Vale if they are supporters of the political aims of BLM and I suspect you will get a short answer.  You may think players are doing it because of BLM.  You would be wrong.  Simple. 

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5 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Ask any player at Vale if they are supporters of the political aims of BLM and I suspect you will get a short answer.  You may think players are doing it because of BLM.  You would be wrong.  Simple. 

I do not now think Vale players are taking the knee in support of BLM, I was not aware of the EFL post or any post from Vale about why they were taking the knee until about 2-3..ish weeks ago. Hope that is simple and clear enough...Gordon Bennett!!

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56 minutes ago, Paul6754 said:

If you have a platform like Colin Kaepernick you better be sure that what you're saying and protesting about is absolutely correct and warranted and the reaction to his actions suggest many people disagree with him.

The USA is actively trying to right the wrongs of the past, it started with the Affirmative Action legislation in 1961 if not before. Perhaps the rights aren't happening fast enough for Colin Kaepernick and the people he listens but they are happening. Perhaps CK and Co. are just blind to the progress that's been made.

As a race activist, CK together with organizations like BLM are promoting oppression, victimization, division and importance of skin color rather than tolerance, progress, opportunity and character.  IMHO It is an extremely divisive and dangerous agenda.

People disagreeing with him doesn't mean he's not absolutely correct. If we used that as the barometer of 'correctness', we'd have made minimal advances as a civilisation. 

I don't think Kaepernick or any movements in the US are blind to the progress that's been made, but are dissatisfied with the current situation. I don't think Kaepernick should only back movements that the majority agree with; sounds like a very dangerous way of maintaining the status quo. 

Edited by Joe B

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12 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

I do not now think Vale players are taking the knee in support of BLM, I was not aware of the EFL post or any post from Vale about why they were taking the knee until about 2-3..ish weeks ago. Hope that is simple and clear enough...Gordon Bennett!!

I’m glad to have educated you in the matter!

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11 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

I’m glad to have educated you in the matter!

Doesn't look like comprehension is you're forte, quote from my post above, "I was not aware of the EFL post or any post from Vale about why they were taking the knee until about 2-3..ish weeks ago". 

Incidentally, when was this EFL Post/Statement published explaining why/what players were taking a knee for? 

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23 hours ago, Joe B said:

People disagreeing with him doesn't mean he's not absolutely correct. If we used that as the barometer of 'correctness', we'd have made minimal advances as a civilisation.

It means some people don't share his views and opinions. How will it be measured that his views/opinions are correct.

23 hours ago, Joe B said:

I don't think Kaepernick or any movements in the US are blind to the progress that's been made, but are dissatisfied with the current situation. I don't think Kaepernick should only back movements that the majority agree with; sounds like a very dangerous way of maintaining the status quo. 

Some people will always be dissatisfied no matter what progress has been made, Kapaernick and his cohorts are a prime example. eg African Americans get into Harvard with much lower SAT scores that Chinese, Indian and White students, an example of positive discrimination.

Kaepernick supports movements and causes that he chooses to, he's just done that.

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15 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Doesn't look like comprehension is you're forte, quote from my post above, "I was not aware of the EFL post or any post from Vale about why they were taking the knee until about 2-3..ish weeks ago". 

Incidentally, when was this EFL Post/Statement published explaining why/what players were taking a knee for? 

Doesn't look like a sense of humour is your forte!

The EFL statement was published on 4 August the week before the season started.

Edited by Jacko51

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To be fair, I'm not sure how the EFL can state that taking the knee is not now explicitly and specifically anti-racist. The knee started out, in recent history at least, as a gesture linked with BLM and I'm not sure if it's up to the football league and associated organisations (who are presumably mainly staffed by white men) to decide what it now stands for. It feels to me that they're trying to water down the message to appease the donkey brains.

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11 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

To be fair, I'm not sure how the EFL can state that taking the knee is not now explicitly and specifically anti-racist. The knee started out, in recent history at least, as a gesture linked with BLM and I'm not sure if it's up to the football league and associated organisations (who are presumably mainly staffed by white men) to decide what it now stands for. It feels to me that they're trying to water down the message to appease the donkey brains.

Not just the EFL.

 

"Since last June, many players have chosen to perform this simple yet powerful act of taking the knee to protest against racism and discrimination,"  And look at the logo at the top.

I'm not sure Kick it Out is staffed by white men, mr.h

Edited by Jacko51

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11 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Fair enough. Would still question whether it's right for them to change the original intention of the gesture. Also, looks like half of the trustees of KIO are white! Seems they've also changed their motto to incorporate all discrimination.

The original gesture goes back long before BLM.  Why get upset if the reason for it now has gone beyond what BLM wanted?  Why get upset if attempts have been made to ensure that the gesture now covers all discrimination and is not linked to a political movement?  If people still want to believe it's still all about Marxism let them.  But it isn't.

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I'm not upset. I just don't think that a gesture that, in recent history, was used by black people to explicitly show they were against racism, should be changed by others, especially a majority of whom are relatively privileged white people. If people came along and said that, I dunno, the poppy was now to show respect not just for those killed in wars but also for refugees who have died fleeing from wars, I would imagine that the Royal Legion might say 'hang on a minute'.

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