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Match Thread: FLC R1 Port Vale v Sunderland


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56 minutes ago, Playa Amodores said:

Is anyone else totally fed up with players wasting time, when their team is winning. Before anyone says anything, yes we do it and for me it’s ruining the game, as the game is stop start and doesn’t flow. You see it every time the game stops, goal kicks, free kicks, thrown ins, substitutions. Sunderland we’re a very good example of this last night. It’s ruining the game and it needs to be stopped NOW. 

Yes but the play acting and throwing yourself on the floor screaming to "buy" a free kick pisses me more.

Its ruining football and why I don't watch PL and European football but sadly its creeping more and more into lower leagues too. If it every gets to the stage as it is in the PL I will stop going.

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26 minutes ago, Playa Amodores said:

Is anyone else totally fed up with players wasting time, when their team is winning. Before anyone says anything, yes we do it and for me it’s ruining the game, as the game is stop start and doesn’t flow. You see it every time the game stops, goal kicks, free kicks, thrown ins, substitutions. Sunderland we’re a very good example of this last night. It’s ruining the game and it needs to be stopped NOW. 

Sunderland were outright taking the pee last night with some of their free kicks.

1. Player A gets the ball and tries to take the freekick 20 yards further forward (knowing the ref will tell him to go back).

2. Player A only takes the ball back 10 yards (again, knowing the ref will tell him to go back further).

3. Player A only goes back another 5 yards, but gives the ball to Player B.

4. Player B puts the ball down and pretends he's going to take it.

5. The GK then ushers Player B away, saying he will now take it.

6. GK repositions the dead ball, looks up and pretends he's looking for someone to kick it to

7. GK finally takes the free kick 10 minutes after the ref blew

The thing is, a strong ref warns them once, then books them on the second attempt and they stop it.

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1 hour ago, Iron Curtain said:

Thing is... as this thread has thoroughly examined and proved... Despite what sky said, we mostly used 352 in the most successful run of our modern era. We nearly broke all the records with it.

Played: 9

Won: 8

Drew: 1

Lost: 0

Scored: 14

Conceded: 3 

That's far more than stopping the rot.

It just cant be as simple as saying it doesn't work... because we have made it work in the past. One thing we know about DC is he will change things up when he sees the benefit of doing so. He did it to us when at Walsall and he changed the formations in-game in that run.

I think we will get to a stage where we use a number of formations at the start and during games. One guess may be that he is waiting for the team to gel a little more first rather than over complicating things with multiple formation changes.... something he did a bit more with a team that had been together longer last year.

I get we love wingers and attacking intent, and Im all for using them... but we cant say 352 doesn't work because it has.

What about all the other games it was used?

Let's be fair and use a full sample.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, MBE said:

IC the big difference between that run and the start of the season is nobody knew how what formation we would play.The start of this season every man and his dog know we are going to play 352 so are well prepared to stop it. Last season the players were pretty much the same each week but you honestly couldn't call how we would set-up. The formation also changed during games with the same personnel so it made it very difficult for the opposition to set-up in a particular way to stop us. 

 

Surely they would have figured it out by game 3

Edited by Iron Curtain

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1 hour ago, philmpv said:
1 hour ago, Playa Amodores said:
Is anyone else totally fed up with players wasting time, when their team is winning. Before anyone says anything, yes we do it and for me it’s ruining the game, as the game is stop start and doesn’t flow. You see it every time the game stops, goal kicks, free kicks, thrown ins, substitutions. Sunderland we’re a very good example of this last night. It’s ruining the game and it needs to be stopped NOW. 

It used to be called time wasting and frowned upon. It's now called 'game management' and applauded. Easy way to stop it - ref required to add on time for all stoppages, and an extra 30 seconds for all deliberate attempts to waste time.

Phil, I agree with what you’ve said, if we can’t do as you’ve suggested players need to be booked. Perhaps you can help me, wasn’t there a directive a couple of seasons back, where players being substituted had to get off the pitch at the nearest touch line.? Again it needs to be enforced from the very top as you see it in international games. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, valeparklife said:

What about all the other games it was used?

Let's be fair and use a full sample.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not claiming it’s perfect.

But your comment was that it doesn’t work… where as that run proves it can. Not that it always does… but it can.

Edited by Iron Curtain
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Phil, I agree with what you’ve said, if we can’t do as you’ve suggested players need to be booked. Perhaps you can help me, wasn’t there a directive a couple of seasons back, where players being substituted had to get off the pitch at the nearest touch line.? Again it needs to be enforced from the very top as you see it in international games. 
Yes there was. But it's not enforced at our level
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10 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not claiming it’s perfect.

But your comment was that it doesn’t work… where as that run proves it can. Not that it always does… but it can.

Fair point.

One of my favourite ever Vale sides, the LDV Vans winning team had a near perfect 3-5-2 system. But the players were L1 quality I suppose.

It's just a system I don't really like to be honest, as I like attackers and overloads out wide to create chances.

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Posted (edited)

we have the players to play 352 there’s no doubt about that. Attacking wing backs, strong midfield we have what we need. It just currently wastes imo our best player in Worrall. Either stick with the formation and move him further forward or change it until gibbons is back

Edited by valiant_593
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1 hour ago, valiant_593 said:

we have the players to play 352 there’s no doubt about that. Attacking wing backs, strong midfield we have what we need. It just currently wastes imo our best player in Worrall. Either stick with the formation and move him further forward or change it until gibbons is back

Just wondered where further forward in our current formation he could play, he is currently the wing back which involves him having to do the defensive work as well as providing the attacking play down the right.  For me Worrall is a winger in a 4 or the wide player in a front 3.  He has played a couple of games in central midfield but don't think that is his position so whilst playing this 352 or 532 whatever it is , where he is now is the only position I see him playing.  I completely agree he has to be played further forward but think this will have to be a change of shape by the manager and not sure he will do it yet.

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23 minutes ago, valefan79 said:

Just wondered where further forward in our current formation he could play, he is currently the wing back which involves him having to do the defensive work as well as providing the attacking play down the right.  For me Worrall is a winger in a 4 or the wide player in a front 3.  He has played a couple of games in central midfield but don't think that is his position so whilst playing this 352 or 532 whatever it is , where he is now is the only position I see him playing.  I completely agree he has to be played further forward but think this will have to be a change of shape by the manager and not sure he will do it yet.

Agree. That’s why I’d like to see us go back to 433. Worrall as forward as possible and let them worry about us. 

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6 hours ago, MBE said:

IC the big difference between that run and the start of the season is nobody knew how what formation we would play.The start of this season every man and his dog know we are going to play 352 so are well prepared to stop it. Last season the players were pretty much the same each week but you honestly couldn't call how we would set-up. The formation also changed during games with the same personnel so it made it very difficult for the opposition to set-up in a particular way to stop us. 

 

Is this the essence of the slow start? Until DC has organised them into changing formation  during the game we will not be effective, but the switch last  night  could have worked as well as showing what we can do. Hopefully by September we will be buzzing.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MBE said:

I'm no fan of 352 but I thought it worked well last night. We played some really nice stuff and opened them up a few times.Jones and Benning link up play on the left was very good plus the way Jones switched the play to Wozza. Unusually for both players the final ball let them both down however the best chances of the game fell to Wilson and Wozza playing that way.  Yes we looked dangerous 442 with pace on the wing through Amoo but I really can't see us changing formation soon.

Peronsally I would prefer to us play 442 with Rodders as the left winger but left playing higher up the pitch like Vincent did during the 1st half of our promotion season.

Changing formation to 4-4-2 put us on the front foot in the second half, which was lead by Amoo and worrall down the wings putting them under more pressure. Bailey and Cass offered little IMO in terms of meaningful contributions other than facilitating the change in shape. Bailey ran round a lot, but it was pointless running, they played around him too easily. But even so I felt that the wingback formation worked well first half too. 

Edited by PV1973
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3 hours ago, valeparklife said:

Sunderland were outright taking the pee last night with some of their free kicks.

1. Player A gets the ball and tries to take the freekick 20 yards further forward (knowing the ref will tell him to go back).

2. Player A only takes the ball back 10 yards (again, knowing the ref will tell him to go back further).

3. Player A only goes back another 5 yards, but gives the ball to Player B.

4. Player B puts the ball down and pretends he's going to take it.

5. The GK then ushers Player B away, saying he will now take it.

6. GK repositions the dead ball, looks up and pretends he's looking for someone to kick it to

7. GK finally takes the free kick 10 minutes after the ref blew

The thing is, a strong ref warns them once, then books them on the second attempt and they stop it.

umm, sounds like scott browns back\\\111111111😄

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PV1973 said:

Changing formation to 4-4-2 put us on the front foot in the second half, which was lead by Amoo and worrall down the wings putting them under more pressure. Bailey and Cass offered little IMO in terms of meaningful contributions other than facilitating the change in shape. Bailey ran round a lot, but it was pointless running, they played around him too easily. But even so I felt that the wingback formation worked well first half too. 

Your right about the formation however I feel your wrong about the lad Bailey he was creating space for the others ,there's running about then there's being a team player .

Wasn't  the last 30 minutes excellent I thought we had scored 3 times and it was when we changed formation and Bailey Cass and Amoo were prominent in us finishing the game extremely well .

I see your point however on this occasion I totally disagree with you .

Wilson is struggling in the formation or maybe he just isn't quite fit enough  yet we played better when he went off I'd say although in general if you were a neutral you would be hard say who were the  league one side in my opinion.

UTV 

Edited by Breadwinner
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1 hour ago, PV1973 said:

Changing formation to 4-4-2 put us on the front foot in the second half, which was lead by Amoo and worrall down the wings putting them under more pressure. Bailey and Cass offered little IMO in terms of meaningful contributions other than facilitating the change in shape. Bailey ran round a lot, but it was pointless running, they played around him too easily. But even so I felt that the wingback formation worked well first half too. 

I hope young Eden is given a chance, he could have been instructed to get about their back four and make himself a nuisance, he's just turned 17 and could hopefully/possibly be someone who goes on and earns us a bob a two, but supporters will have to be prepared to allow for mistakes.

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5 minutes ago, blackdog said:

I hope young Eden is given a chance, he could have been instructed to get about their back four and make himself a nuisance, he's just turned 17 and could hopefully/possibly be someone who goes on and earns us a bob a two, but supporters will have to be prepared to allow for mistakes.

Absolutely agree. We saw a similar thing with Dan Turner a few years ago, plenty of willing to run around and chase a ball, but didn’t yet have the know how or strength to play against better, more experienced defenders. Last night Sunderland just played it around Bailey. Personally I think that we don’t give strikers enough time to develop, especially if they come in and struggle to score. He needs a loan move out soon to play competitive football I think. 

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If I'm not completely mistaken their first goal came as a result of playing 3 at the back. Their guy who scored received the ball in space on the left wing beyond the RWB's, the 3 Vale central defenders were in the middle. Their guy advances to the edge of the penalty area unchallenged and has time to set his sights and let fly into Stone's far left corner.

The is no Vale player to challenge their player and shepherd him down the touchline, when their player receives the ball he has time and space to do what he wants.

I hope DC looks at this as 3 at the back is fast becoming a real Achilles heel, easily exploitable by the opposition.

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