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Defining Racism


Regal Beagle
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3 hours ago, ginge said:

One side recognised the discrimination and apologised. The other side didn't. Do you think the cricket case is a case of friendly banter? Or should now be called out?

He recognised the discrimination and apologised, I'd say, because it is pretty detrimental to his own case.

 

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On 23/11/2021 at 17:06, hillmanhunter said:

I'm assuming someone is racist if they have a dissenting view on anti-racism efforts. Yes. Especially if the anti-racism effort is innocuous like taking a knee for 5 seconds.

The rest of what you wrote is logical gibberish. Sorry.

You are almost there, we just go in completely the direct opposite way at the final hurdle.

 

Perhaps you can explain to me who, as a result of their race, is suffering from prejudice or discrimination when someone decides to boo footballers who take a knee? And exactly what that prejudice or discrimination is?

 

 

 

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On 24/11/2021 at 01:56, toyahw said:

How would people feel if their daughter married a bloke of Indian heritage? Never thought anything  of it. Nice bloke.  Nice family. Colourful wedding. All my aging relatives there well into it. We had a great time. I really find it hard to understand why anyone gives a

It really is quite silly to have an issue with it if you think about. Same with homophobia, if you actually just strip it back to the absolute basics, imagine having a problem with someone because of their preference of genitals....it's mental really.

On 24/11/2021 at 17:49, ginge said:

Because one party discriminated others in the past does not excuse him being discriminated against. There are no excuses and all racism should be held to account. It's shocking how people have tried to condone racism in this cricket scandal just because the victim doesn't have an innocent past. 

I agree with this to a point. I read up on the Rafiq case and he was treated horrendously at times and no doubt at least some of it was racially motivated. That being said, I do find it hard to believe all of his accusations in the light of his own messages.

On 24/11/2021 at 19:57, toyahw said:

That's good. I was a bit surprised some of my elderly relatives who live in  all white places didn't have a problem, or a comment or two. But nah. All good. Found it quite exciting really. Not all old white people are racist!

There is a bit of a problem with hypersensitive perceived racism where none exists.  This drives my Surinamese mate mad. He's in the "the racism industry is doing me no favours camp". Makes him feel odd when in fact he's just an Amsterdammer and would be treated as such, above issues of colour.

I am in no way saying there is not an issue. Just that it is in my experience (which I admit is not typical) it is not  so ingrained as some make out.

That's a really good point. To follow the logic of the poster I quoted in my last post, if you hold a contrary view to "anti-racism" then it's entirely possible that your friend could be an assumed racist. 

23 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Yeah, 'cause you really care about racism, don't you? 

I'm not sure why you care again all of a sudden, is there an election going on I don't know about?

9 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Based on religion not on colour then.

Technically true but if there's a case of any religion being rooted in ethnicity then it's probably Judaism. Many people consider themselves ethnically Jewish but not religiously Jewish. I don't think you can be "ethnically" Muslim or Christian for example, really.

 

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3 hours ago, Fosse69 said:
4 hours ago, For Us All said:
If you don't see the double standards we'd better leave it at that.It seems some people are beyond reproach?

Of course I see the double standard, one side occupies land displacing people who have lived there for centuries.

 

Dangerous ground to conflate the state of Israel and Jews in a discussion on racism. This is one of the things that got Corbyn's Labour into trouble when they were outed in 2019.

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On 25/11/2021 at 20:21, Regal Beagle said:

You are almost there, we just go in completely the direct opposite way at the final hurdle.

 

Perhaps you can explain to me who, as a result of their race, is suffering from prejudice or discrimination when someone decides to boo footballers who take a knee? And exactly what that prejudice or discrimination is?

 

 

 

You'd have to have a complete lack of empathy to even ask those questions. I can't be bothered to explain to you why heckling anti-racism is wrong. It seems self-evident to me.

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21 minutes ago, hillmanhunter said:

You'd have to have a complete lack of empathy to even ask those questions. I can't be bothered to explain to you why heckling anti-racism is wrong. It seems self-evident to me.

Summed it up in the first sentence perfectly. Not everybody who lacks empathy is racist but I'd say everyone who is racist has no empathy. 

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Defining racism. Lets look at it a different way - re taking the knee....

We know that players reps have come out and stated that the knee taking is a gesture to protest about racism in the game of football - so all of the BLM stuff is an irrelevance, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that any Vale players are kneeling as a purely 'political' gesture. The gesture is very likely to be this  - 'I don't want racism in my sport, I am kneeling to show this because I want things to change' 

We know that we have players who, on the balance of probabilities might have suffered racism in the past, or may have had family members who have suffered racism. Their will certainly be players who kneel on the pitch at Vale park this season who have suffered racial abuse or have been treated unfairly due to the colour of their skin at some point in their lives.

We know that our players kneel.

On the balance of probabilities, it is likely, that we have players who will therefore be upset (at the very least) at hearing booing when they are making a gesture that might mean something to them personally.

Based on all of the above is it racist to boo the gesture? Hard to say with certainty - I am pretty certain that at least some of the people who Boo are racist, but it isn't the only reason to Boo and some may be doing it for other reasons.

Is it moronic to Boo players when they are trying to make a personal and positive gesture - YES.

People who Boo see the political undertones of the gesture, don't see that they are not showing solidarity (supporting?)  their own players, show no empathy with individuals who have / may have been racially abused and seem to ignore the messages that come direct from the players about why they are taking the knee.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

You'd have to have a complete lack of empathy to even ask those questions. I can't be bothered to explain to you why heckling anti-racism is wrong. It seems self-evident to me.

A golden opportunity for a virtuous anti-racism advocate to teach someone about their cause. And they "Can't be bothered" to explain.

 

If we're going with this mental gymnastic logic of.....loosely tie something to black people and then claim black people are victims and therefore the original thing is now racist....If you "Can't be bothered" to teach someone about racism, are you not a racist?

 

(I know you are not by the way, I just can't believe what you are trying to assert without being able to explain)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 24/11/2021 at 06:31, hillmanhunter said:

The duck test is a form of abductive reasoning. This is its usual expression: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. The test implies that a person can identify an unknown subject by observing that subject's habitual characteristics

Here's another question for you to refuse to answer:

 

Isn't your post above the exact same logic that a racist person would use to form their opinions on people of other races? You assign collective 'guilt' to a group based on the 'crimes' that you perceive a minority of them have committed, regardless of whether the individual is guilty?

 

Could I use your duck test logic to say...This person looks like a grooming gang member...or this person sounds like a terrorist...and therefore probably is one? Because that sounds AWFULLY racist to me.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Here's another question for you to refuse to answer:

 

Isn't your post above the exact same logic that a racist person would use to form their opinions on people of other races? You assign collective 'guilt' to a group based on the 'crimes' that you perceive a minority of them have committed, regardless of whether the individual is guilty?

 

Could I use your duck test logic to say...This person looks like a grooming gang member...or this person sounds like a terrorist...and therefore probably is one? Because that sounds AWFULLY racist to me.

 

 

Yes you can use the duck test logic. Just tell us what a grooming gang member looks like or what a terrorist sounds like.

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23 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

Yes you can use the duck test logic. Just tell us what a grooming gang member looks like or what a terrorist sounds like.

 

It's bloody hard work to try and work out what the definition of racism is when you are debating someone who can't be bothered to tell you but can be bothered to play these crazy mind games and speak in riddles without ever revealing any actual information.

 

 

Just so I'm totally understood....based on the crime statistics which shows that asian men of islamic faith, and most likely from Pakistan, are vastly disproportionately engaging in grooming gang behaviour. Similarly, asian men of islamic faith are disproportionately responsible for the UK based terror attacks. 

 

Therefore, I believe it is textbook racism for someone to say "he looks like people who are disproportionately responsible for grooming and raping children in gangs" therefore he probably is one.

 

That's the same logic as you used earlier in the thread to ascribe racism to people who you had no evidence were racist. Isn't it? 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

It's bloody hard work to try and work out what the definition of racism is when you are debating someone who can't be bothered to tell you but can be bothered to play these crazy mind games and speak in riddles without ever revealing any actual information.

On 2nd August I said

I'd define racism as 'booing an innocuous gesture against racism'

 

Just so I'm totally understood....based on the crime statistics which shows that asian men of islamic faith, and most likely from Pakistan, are vastly disproportionately engaging in grooming gang behaviour. Similarly, asian men of islamic faith are disproportionately responsible for the UK based terror attacks. 

 

Therefore, I believe it is textbook racism for someone to say "he looks like people who are disproportionately responsible for grooming and raping children in gangs" therefore he probably is one.

 

That's the same logic as you used earlier in the thread to ascribe racism to people who you had no evidence were racist. Isn't it? 

 

 

No, I'm basing my conclusion on actions, not appearances.

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well to me this is blatant racism, lets see who calls it out as such...

Black Lives Matter has called on Christmas shoppers to boycott white companies as part of "Black Xmas".

The Black Lives Matter Global Network announced on social media there should be no spending at companies owned by white people between Black Friday on November 26 and New Year's Day.

It encouraged people to "buy exclusively from Black-owned businesses", adding "we're dreaming of a #Blackxmas". Black Xmas began in 2014 after John Crawford, a black man, was fatally shot in an Ohio Walmart store.

The group also posted on its website: "Black Friday sales are being rolled out weeks in advance of Thanksgiving and, at every turn, white-supremacist-capitalism is telling us to spend our money on things that we don't need, to reap profits for corporations.

"Let's harness our economic power to disrupt white-supremacist-capitalism and build Black community."

The move prompted criticism from some social media users, who said it was racist and segregating. Others praised the move and asked for recommendations of black-owned firms to support.

 

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Fuming are ya Dave?

Who would have thought that a society of people racially marginalised for centuries would bite back when they still live in a racist society?

Edited by WV
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40 minutes ago, WV said:

Fuming are ya Dave?

Who would have thought that a society of people racially marginalised for centuries would bite back when they still live in a racist society?

If they don't wish to live in a racist society then perhaps they should stop being racist?

 

This is why I detest "anti-racism" movements such as BLM. They're not anti-racism movements, they're racist movements. They don't want to stop racism, as evidenced by the BLM quotes above. They promote, create, support racism. Overtly too. Can anyone point me to an international movement or organisation who says anything even remotely similar about black people/ owned businesses?

 

"bite back" - very concerning language.

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