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Euro 2020


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6 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Southgate has to go otherwise the same process will repeat itself again at the next world cup.

Which process, the one where we get to the final? I'd quite happily see a repeat of that process thanks! 

I genuinely can't believe you're on about sacking a manager after he got us to our first final in 55 years, and only lost on penalties. Of course he's not perfect, but no manager is. If you get a manager who is less cautious, or is an absolute master tactician, you might have to compromise on the man management or other aspects, and end up in a much worse position overall.

Whether you rate him or not, Southgate has got results as England manager, and has the team on an upward trajectory, having picked up the job when we were at our lowest ebb (having lost to Iceland and then having to briefly suffer Big Sam and his pints of wine).

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20 minutes ago, Clayts said:

Which process, the one where we get to the final? I'd quite happily see a repeat of that process thanks! 

I genuinely can't believe you're on about sacking a manager after he got us to our first final in 55 years, and only lost on penalties. Of course he's not perfect, but no manager is. If you get a manager who is less cautious, or is an absolute master tactician, you might have to compromise on the man management or other aspects, and end up in a much worse position overall.

Whether you rate him or not, Southgate has got results as England manager, and has the team on an upward trajectory, having picked up the job when we were at our lowest ebb (having lost to Iceland and then having to briefly suffer Big Sam and his pints of wine).

I don't think you will find a better example of the fickle football fan. Ignores the progress, ignores the 55 years its taken to get to final again, the mentality to think of bringing someone else in who might not even get us out of the group is astonishing. 

The players clearly respect him, they believe in what he's trying to do with the team, to even consider removing him from that position is so knee-jerk and is exactly what is wrong with the average football fan - no balance to their views, just get rid, easy. 

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2 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I don't think you will find a better example of the fickle football fan. Ignores the progress, ignores the 55 years its taken to get to final again, the mentality to think of bringing someone else in who might not even get us out of the group is astonishing. 

The players clearly respect him, they believe in what he's trying to do with the team, to even consider removing him from that position is so knee-jerk and is exactly what is wrong with the average football fan - no balance to their views, just get rid, easy. 

Very true, football is based on results and we are improving in each major competition with a young team. By all means review the games and talent available, no doubt plenty of advice will be given, but as long as progress is being made carry on with Southgate. There is always someone better until they get in the hot seat.

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40 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Very true, football is based on results and we are improving in each major competition with a young team. By all means review the games and talent available, no doubt plenty of advice will be given, but as long as progress is being made carry on with Southgate. There is always someone better until they get in the hot seat.

The fact is every time we meet a top 10 team we get beat and Germany apparently are not in the top 10 at the moment 

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2 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Denmark are and we beat them.

 

And Germany crushed Portugal who are a top 5 team in the same tournament. After that game so many people said they looked fantastic and could get to the final.

We beat them and it's "Not what they used to be" and "poor team".

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What we're lacking is that player that knits things together in midfield like a Pirlo or a Modric. Someone that is always available and can dictate the pace of the game.  In the last 2 major tournament defeats we've lost grip in the midfield and given up too much possession.  The very best sides wouldn't give up 2/3 possession to anyone.  It causes us to drop deeper and inevitably the pressure tells. 

I think we're among the best in the world in defence and attack but it lacks that midfield maestro to take us to the top level.  Perhaps Bellingham might be that player eventually? 

We also lack that killer instinct and psychologically we're still not very strong.  We were beaten before the penalty shoot out the other night.  Just looking at the body language of the Italians compared to us.  They didn't look nervous or anxious. 

Having said that, we could have still stumbled over the line.  If Rashford's penalty goes in I think we would have won. There would have been more pressure put on the Italians at that point.  I mean Rashford sent the keeper the wrong way but he was trying to be too precise.  I'd always go for increased power over accuracy as it gives the keeper less time to react.

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2 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

What we're lacking is that player that knits things together in midfield like a Pirlo or a Modric. Someone that is always available and can dictate the pace of the game.  In the last 2 major tournament defeats we've lost grip in the midfield and given up too much possession.  The very best sides wouldn't give up 2/3 possession to anyone.  It causes us to drop deeper and inevitably the pressure tells. 

I think we're among the best in the world in defence and attack but it lacks that midfield maestro to take us to the top level.  Perhaps Bellingham might be that player eventually? 

We also lack that killer instinct and psychologically we're still not very strong.  We were beaten before the penalty shoot out the other night.  Just looking at the body language of the Italians compared to us.  They didn't look nervous or anxious. 

Having said that, we could have still stumbled over the line.  If Rashford's penalty goes in I think we would have won. There would have been more pressure put on the Italians at that point.  I mean Rashford sent the keeper the wrong way but he was trying to be too precise.  I'd always go for increased power over accuracy as it gives the keeper less time to react.

That ridiculous run up to the ball did him no favours 

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6 hours ago, Clayts said:

Which process, the one where we get to the final? I'd quite happily see a repeat of that process thanks! 

I genuinely can't believe you're on about sacking a manager after he got us to our first final in 55 years, and only lost on penalties. Of course he's not perfect, but no manager is. If you get a manager who is less cautious, or is an absolute master tactician, you might have to com

6 hours ago, Rocky said:

I don't think you will find a better example of the fickle football fan. Ignores the progress, ignores the 55 years its taken to get to final again, the mentality to think of bringing someone else in who might not even get us out of the group is astonishing. 

The players clearly respect him, they believe in what he's trying to do with the team, to even consider removing him from that position is so knee-jerk and is exactly what is wrong with the average football fan - no balance to their views, just get rid, easy. 

promise on the man management or other aspects, and end up in a much worse position overall.

Whether you rate him or not, Southgate has got results as England manager, and has the team on an upward trajectory, having picked up the job when we were at our lowest ebb (having lost to Iceland and then having to briefly suffer Big Sam and his pints of wine).

The process of being far too defensive/cautious, Southgate employed the same tactics at the 2018 WC as at the 2020 Euros. In the 2020 final vs Italy it was worse by playing only 3 out and out attacking players and leaving it too late to make substitutions to try and change the game.

The progress that's been made over the last few years is in the increased ability of the players at England's disposal and the emergence of Harry Kane as a World Class striker. Unfortunately for England a top class manager who's tacticly astute,  makes the right decisions at the right time is also required to make the next step but unfortunately Southgate isn't a top class manager as was plain to see for many people over the last month at least.

Tournament football in particular is getting the balance right between defense and attack, Southgate is far too defensive in his approach and has had three tournaments to change but hasn't done so.

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He didn't employ the same tactics at WC2018, he played 3 at the back every game, with 1 DM, so effectively 3-3-3-1, whereas in the Euros he switched between 4-2-3-1 and 3-4-3 depending on opposition.

And you're right, the squad has improved in the last few years; have a look back at the 2018 squad and tell me they were world class and that we underperformed. Even with a favourable draw, semis was a great result with Lingard, Alli, Young at LWB, and a choice in central midfield between Henderson, Dier and Loftus-Cheek. The problem v Croatia was that we got overrun in midfield, because we had nothing much there to combat them with. You can have Guardiola as manager, you're not beating Modric, Brozovic and Rakitic with that lot!

And that's why he's gone with the more pragmatic approach since. And no, it didn't work in the end against Italy, but I don't think it was Southgate who ordered them to keep giving the ball away and drop that deep, it's almost as if Italy (arguably best team in the world right now, unbeaten in 2 years) wrested back control.

But no, you're right, sack him, he has a 0% record in major tournament finals, worst of any England manager ever!

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21 hours ago, Clayts said:

He didn't employ the same tactics at WC2018, he played 3 at the back every game, with 1 DM, so effectively 3-3-3-1, whereas in the Euros he switched between 4-2-3-1 and 3-4-3 depending on opposition.

And you're right, the squad has improved in the last few years; have a look back at the 2018 squad and tell me they were world class and that we underperformed. Even with a favourable draw, semis was a great result with Lingard, Alli, Young at LWB, and a choice in central midfield between Henderson, Dier and Loftus-Cheek. The problem v Croatia was that we got overrun in midfield, because we had nothing much there to combat them with. You can have Guardiola as manager, you're not beating Modric, Brozovic and Rakitic with that lot!

And that's why he's gone with the more pragmatic approach since. And no, it didn't work in the end against Italy, but I don't think it was Southgate who ordered them to keep giving the ball away and drop that deep, it's almost as if Italy (arguably best team in the world right now, unbeaten in 2 years) wrested back control.

But no, you're right, sack him, he has a 0% record in major tournament finals, worst of any England manager ever!

In the 2018 WC Southgate lined up as a 3-5-2 which can morph into all sorts of combinations, generally England were disjointed, defensive and cautious, there was no pattern of play, too much lateral and backwards passing and it was a commonly held belief that England would lose against a good team which they duly did against Belgium and Croatia. Belgium had far better players, Croatia had at least as good players as England and a coach who was far more tactically astute than Southgate and who made a difference.

England got overrun in midfield 'cause the Croatian coach changed their tactics and turned England's 3-5-2 into a 5-3-2 and Southgate didn't respond. The changes allowed Croatia to get their wide players in behind England's wingbacks and supply crosses to Mandzukic. England's wingbacks dropped deeper giving Croatia's widemen even more time and space to cross the ball from in front of England's wingbacks, several chances were created before the inevitable happened. Take a look at the goals.

I'm pleased you've realized the improvement from 2018 to 2021 in England has been down to the increased ability in the squad. We will have to agree to disagree on the point that Southgate isn't up to the job at the highest level, he is too defensive, tactically naive and slow to change tactics when he finally realizes he's been out-thought.

Out of interest what's his overall track record as a manager in Men's football, the answer is could and should've done a lot better.

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32 minutes ago, Paul6754 said:

 

Out of interest what's his overall track record as a manager in Men's football, the answer is could and should've done a lot better.

Southgate’s current win % of just under 64% is 2nd to only Capello in England managers since WW2 and only Sir Alf Ramsey has achieved more in a major tournament by winning the World Cup.

I’m not sure what else is relevant to the debate as to the fitness of the guy to be England manager.

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1 hour ago, saintvaliant said:

Southgate’s current win % of just under 64% is 2nd to only Capello in England managers since WW2 and only Sir Alf Ramsey has achieved more in a major tournament by winning the World Cup.

I’m not sure what else is relevant to the debate as to the fitness of the guy to be England manager.

You've answered your own question that win % when used alone is not a sensible method with which to compare managers. There are other terms which should be included in that equation to get a fairer picture, if they could be measured, eg quality of squad, quality of opposition, availability of  key players etc. 

Are you saying Southgate is as good or even better than Sir Alf (Win % 61.1), a man who was tactically innovative which contributed to a World Cup win and won the 1st Div with an unfancied Ipswich Town. Southgate better than Bobby Robson (49.5%) or El Tel (47.8).

To put England win % in perspective even Steve Mclaren achieved 50% and Roy Hodgson 58.9% although Hodgson had got some tactical nouse.

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