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The main issue with Southgate is he can be slow to make in game changes (the goal was coming) and does seem negative tactically when you consider the incredible attacking talent we now have.

Our squad is far better than Italy man for man but they won it deservedly and our main weakness appeared to be defensively pre tournament and we ended up very solid so there is a balance there.

When you consider the 'golden generation' when our squad was full of world class players in all positions, mostly at their peak around 2004-10 and how they performed despite the huge talent we had (2 QF, 1 R16 and a failure to make Euro 2008) then it does show the good job Southgate has done and the future looks incredibly bright, St Georges and the investment and set up the FA have put in place is starting to pay off like Spain did and Clairefontaine in France and I do feel we have a great chance now to be a big player in the next decade.

 

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6 hours ago, darren1810 said:

How did the powers that be come to the conclusion that Donnarumma was player of the tournament ?

Bearing in mind they won the group with their eyes closed and from the last 16 onwards it's not like they were battered and he made a flurry of fantastic saves to get them to the final. 

Seems to me he's been given it based on a few easy penalty saves. 

I'd assume 99% of the time it's a player from the winning team so Chiesa would of got my vote. 

Very strange choice . 

Player of the match perhaps but Pickford would have got my vote for player of the tournament with five clean sheets.

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1 hour ago, eh up nah said:

Wow!

I'm thinking you simply don't like the fella.

He's got a better record, but he might not be a better manager?!

Not at all, Southgate has done a good job in both tournaments but I do not agree he is as good as many are coming out with and yes, Hodgson is a better manager, look at his club record and compare to what Southgate has done outside the England job. England were 2nd favourites to win the trophy going in to the tournament and we finished 2nd, yes Southgate did a good job to get us to the final but we ended up where we were predicted to finish.

Last time I looked we are 7th favourite to go up this season, if we make the play offs in 7th position and fail in the play off final, will you be saying that DC is fantastic and done a great job?

 

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I agree with most of that, but would argue that Southgate set us up defensively/pragmatically (delete as appropriate) in order to make up for any relative weaknesses in the centre of defence and midfield. Croatia scored 7 in 2 games against teams who were more open (Scotland and Spain), Germany put 4 past Portugal (and could have had more), and Denmark had scored 10 in 3 games prior to meeting us, so pragmatism seems a logical option in those games.

I disagree with this though

1 hour ago, valefan16 said:

Our squad is far better than Italy man for man

I actually think we're very similar overall, neither squad has huge stars like in the past, but a lot of very good performers for their clubs, good technically and with lots of energy from largely interchangeable players with similar quality in attacking positions, and real togetherness in the squad. The only difference probably is their experience in those key areas, with Chiellini, Bonucci and Jorginho, plus most of their attacking and MF players being at their peak (most mid-to-late 20s, so more experience than most of our kids), and yes, Mancini won the tactical battle on Sunday (but Southgate got the better of Löw, amongst others).

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1 hour ago, philpvfc said:

Not at all, Southgate has done a good job in both tournaments but I do not agree he is as good as many are coming out with and yes, Hodgson is a better manager, look at his club record and compare to what Southgate has done outside the England job. England were 2nd favourites to win the trophy going in to the tournament and we finished 2nd, yes Southgate did a good job to get us to the final but we ended up where we were predicted to finish.

Last time I looked we are 7th favourite to go up this season, if we make the play offs in 7th position and fail in the play off final, will you be saying that DC is fantastic and done a great job?

 

Hodgson as an international manager better than Southgate? I can't have that mate to be honest.  He got the Swiss job after a mixed career in Sweden.  He got them to a last 16 in the USA world cup.  Credible to be fair as they'd not qualified for anything since 1966 at the time.

But that's it.  

With England he was an absolute disaster.

No doubting it.

I think the fact that we were predicted to finish second is largely to do with the setup Southgate has put in place and the performances/results under his tenure.

What was our predicted finish in Russia before it kicked off?

The fact that we were so fancied after the state we were in five years back is pretty impressive I think.

On DC, no, I wouldn't say a 7th favourite side not going up in the playoffs after finishing 7th is a failure.

I'd read that as we are the 7th most likely team to go up.  Only 4 can and the playoffs is a one off tournament anyone can win.

This is just off the top of my head, as I've not seen the odds, but if Salford were the 4th favourites and we both finished 4th and 7th you couldn't call us failures if they beat us in the playoffs using your own logic could you?

I will say that if someone offered me 7th for the Vale this season then I would take it.

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17 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Serious question, Who said last night's game was gonna be easy for England? I only heard comments like, Italy are the best team in the tournament, Italy have played some of the best football, England have home advantage which could be a plus or a negative etc. I heard Del Piero say on ESPN "He thought England had the stronger squad" to which Sammy kadeira retorted "But Italy have the better manager" to which Macca chimed in with, "I hope Southgate isn't too negative etc.

I can't remember seeing a post or hearing anyone say or intimate anything remotely close to "it would be easy for us".

We've had folk saying it was a great opportunity for us and criticising Southgate for not "going for it."

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6 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

We've had folk saying it was a great opportunity for us and criticising Southgate for not "going for it."

It was a great opportunity and had the team not sat back then things may have ended up different, who knows. Can’t recall anyone saying it would be easy though. 

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7 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

It was a great opportunity and had the team not sat back then things may have ended up different, who knows. Can’t recall anyone saying it would be easy though. 

Easy was OTT, sorry, but plenty were implying Southgate had chickened out which was rubbish.

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6 hours ago, philpvfc said:

Not at all, Southgate has done a good job in both tournaments but I do not agree he is as good as many are coming out with and yes, Hodgson is a better manager, look at his club record and compare to what Southgate has done outside the England job. England were 2nd favourites to win the trophy going in to the tournament and we finished 2nd, yes Southgate did a good job to get us to the final but we ended up where we were predicted to finish.

Last time I looked we are 7th favourite to go up this season, if we make the play offs in 7th position and fail in the play off final, will you be saying that DC is fantastic and done a great job?

 

The betting is irrelevant. Were we second favourites anywhere else in Europe?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Clayts said:

So, just out of curiosity, do you think this England team is significantly better than any team we've had in the last 25 years? We're very strong in attacking midfield and at full-back, but are we really that strong through the core of the team (GK, CB, CM, ST) compared to previous years?

If you accept that the current team (or that in 2018 for that matter) isn't notably stronger, then to what do you attribute the greater level of success? I certainly wouldn't say we had an especially easy draw, (Ukraine QF aside, which we strolled), and certainly progressed far more serenely (including with wins against Croatia, Czech Rep and Germany) than in say 1990, when we were very lucky to get past Belgium and especially Cameroon and only got out of the group with a 1-0 v Egypt.

If it really was in spite of Southgate, and not at least partially thanks to him, how crap was every single manager England have had since Ramsey to do even worse than Southgate?

 

To be fair we have had plenty of toss managers. The way I see it, plenty of other nations aren't as strong as they have been. Germany, Portugal, Spain, Netherlands... Even Italy who are now Euro Champions aren't the team they were when they had the likes of Pirlo and Totti etc. I also think that we were quite fortunate in both the last World Cup and this Euro's just gone in regards to who we played. That's not to say we had it easy, but things could definitely have been a lot more difficult than they turned out.

It might be a bit harsh to say that we made the final despite of Southgate. I've got nothing against him - I think he's a top bloke and clearly has some positive attributes. But it isn't harsh to say that he's not got anywhere near enough out of our attacking options, which are the envy of lots of other Nations. I don't have any faith that we'll suddenly start to look the force we could and should be under him either. As well as we did to make the final I was genuinely bored watching England at times, which takes some doing when you have players like Foden, Grealish, Sancho and Mount.

Edited by Beech
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12 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

The betting is irrelevant. Were we second favourites anywhere else in Europe?

Yes….. I thought the same before the cup started so logged on to a French booking site which had us down at exactly the same odds and joint favourites alongside France. 

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It’s pretty obvious that managerial skills are not the most important attributes to have when being manager of England. Being on favour with the press is massively important, Taylor was crucified as was Sven to a certain degree, while Venables who I did not rate was loved by the press and Southgate is very good in the way he comes across hence the press love him. 

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20 hours ago, For Us All said:

Player of the match perhaps but Pickford would have got my vote for player of the tournament with five clean sheets.

He hardly had a shot to save, that statistic speaks to the defence, Rice and Phillips more.

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On 13/07/2021 at 09:31, darren1810 said:

How did the powers that be come to the conclusion that Donnarumma was player of the tournament ?

Bearing in mind they won the group with their eyes closed and from the last 16 onwards it's not like they were battered and he made a flurry of fantastic saves to get them to the final. 

Seems to me he's been given it based on a few easy penalty saves. 

I'd assume 99% of the time it's a player from the winning team so Chiesa would of got my vote. 

Very strange choice . 

Because he was available to give the trophy to there and then, it would have looked random for a 3rd team player to walk on, and would have been met with scorn to give it to the real player of the tournament, Sterling, in that moment.

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At the end of the day a 70 year old centre half duo should not be getting to a shoot out against some of the best support strikers in the world. Much less scoring against them. We didn’t attack with the ball at feet enough, couldn’t get it out wide fast enough. Once we scored the goal we tried to contain when we should have just ran them ragged on the wings. 

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1 hour ago, 1 said:

At the end of the day a 70 year old centre half duo should not be getting to a shoot out against some of the best support strikers in the world. Much less scoring against them. We didn’t attack with the ball at feet enough, couldn’t get it out wide fast enough. Once we scored the goal we tried to contain when we should have just ran them ragged on the wings. 

Yep.

I think its probably correct that Donnarumma made more saves in the penalty shootout than he had to in the entire 120 minutes of the game!

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