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Euro 2020


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1 hour ago, philpvfc said:

we have the best squad in my lifetime

Really? In those core areas of the pitch? Interesting that the win over Germany in Euro 2000 was mentioned above, the last time we beat them in an actual tournament, but we still couldn't even make it out of the group, despite being unable to even find room in the squad for David James, Rio Ferdinand or Andy Cole, all of whom would walk into this squad (at the respective points in their careers).

You honestly saying that you'd take Pickford over Seaman; Maguire, Stones, Mings and Coady over Adams, Campbell, Southgate and Keown (with Ferdinand missing the cut!); Phillips, Rice and Henderson over Ince, Gerrard and Scholes; Mount and Grealish/Foden over Beckham and Real-era McManaman; Kane, Rashford, Sterling and DCL over Shearer, Owen, Fowler, Heskey and Phillips? 

Like I said, there are positions (FB, AM) where we're really strong now and have better depth than ever, and this is a good squad overall, (stronger than 2014-2018 certainly) with potential for further development given their age. But the spine of the squad is no better than several others in recent memory, certainly those from the mid-90s through to about 2010.

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12 minutes ago, Clayts said:

Really? In those core areas of the pitch? Interesting that the win over Germany in Euro 2000 was mentioned above, the last time we beat them in an actual tournament, but we still couldn't even make it out of the group, despite being unable to even find room in the squad for David James, Rio Ferdinand or Andy Cole, all of whom would walk into this squad (at the respective points in their careers).

You honestly saying that you'd take Pickford over Seaman; Maguire, Stones, Mings and Coady over Adams, Campbell, Southgate and Keown (with Ferdinand missing the cut!); Phillips, Rice and Henderson over Ince, Gerrard and Scholes; Mount and Grealish/Foden over Beckham and Real-era McManaman; Kane, Rashford, Sterling and DCL over Shearer, Owen, Fowler, Heskey and Phillips? 

Like I said, there are positions (FB, AM) where we're really strong now and have better depth than ever, and this is a good squad overall, (stronger than 2014-2018 certainly) with potential for further development given their age. But the spine of the squad is no better than several others in recent memory, certainly those from the mid-90s through to about 2010.

I would have a mixture of the 2 teams but Seaman wasn’t up to scratch, Pickford better plus Kane up front. The thing is, we had great players then as we do now but we did not have nearly as much depth to the squad, 1 or 2 injuries and we were screwed then plus you don’t mention the full backs, Neville and Pearce aside we have not had many decent full backs through the years. This time we did not have a weakness in our team plus the added benefit of playing at Wembley for most the games. 

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16 minutes ago, eh up nah said:

True

Group game though and both teams went home after that stage.

I think most Germans would say that was their worst ever period.

I think most Germans would say the last 4 years have been their worst period. 

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2 hours ago, philpvfc said:

Is Southgate better than a lot of the managers we have had before? I would say no, certainly not better than Hodgson.

 

Hmm. Let’s look at our last 4 major tournaments:

2014 World Cup - Hodgson - knocked out at the group stage

2016 Euros - Hodgson - knocked out in R16 by the mighty Iceland

2018 World Cup - Southgate - knocked out in the semi final by Croatia after extra time

2020 Euros - Southgate - runners up after losing in the lottery of a penalty shootout against an Italian side that had also beaten Belgium (world no 1) and Spain (world no 6) en route to the final 

I know whose record I prefer.

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47 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

Seaman wasn’t up to scratch

Really? By 2002 and that Ronaldinho goal maybe (although THAT save v Sheff Utd was the year after if I remember right), but he certainly had better temperament than Pickford, was great 1 v 1, excellent shot-stopper, good on pens, held the ball more often than Pickford, and had longevity (Pickford may be number one for another 50 caps and become a great, but we'll see).

You mention depth, but that is exactly what I was highlighting in that 2000 squad in key areas (CB, CM, ST) where we had better units collectively. Kane, Maguire and Stones make the 2000 squad comfortably of course, but the point stands that collectively the CB and FW units in 2021 are weaker. I didn't mention full-back because I already said the current squad is better in that area, no argument whatsoever, this was specifically looking at the spine of the team.

Also, you're saying now we didn't have a weakness, but before the tournament plenty of people on this very thread were saying we were weak at CB, (Stones prone to mistakes, Mings not international class etc.), worried about GK with Pickford off the back of an iffy season and cover from keepers from WB and SU, and lack of experience in CM (how many caps between Rice, Phillips and Bellingham before this tournament, 30 maybe, with Henderson injured?). 

Southgate took all that pre-tournament doubt about our quality, and by the end of the tournament turned us into a squad that apparently was the best in the tournament and should be disappointed not to have won it. Were all his decisions in the final perfect? No. Is he the best tactician in football management? No. But he's managed an England squad to a better result than any other person we've had in his position in the last 55 years, so surely some credit is due?

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The main issue with Southgate is he can be slow to make in game changes (the goal was coming) and does seem negative tactically when you consider the incredible attacking talent we now have.

Our squad is far better than Italy man for man but they won it deservedly and our main weakness appeared to be defensively pre tournament and we ended up very solid so there is a balance there.

When you consider the 'golden generation' when our squad was full of world class players in all positions, mostly at their peak around 2004-10 and how they performed despite the huge talent we had (2 QF, 1 R16 and a failure to make Euro 2008) then it does show the good job Southgate has done and the future looks incredibly bright, St Georges and the investment and set up the FA have put in place is starting to pay off like Spain did and Clairefontaine in France and I do feel we have a great chance now to be a big player in the next decade.

 

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6 hours ago, darren1810 said:

How did the powers that be come to the conclusion that Donnarumma was player of the tournament ?

Bearing in mind they won the group with their eyes closed and from the last 16 onwards it's not like they were battered and he made a flurry of fantastic saves to get them to the final. 

Seems to me he's been given it based on a few easy penalty saves. 

I'd assume 99% of the time it's a player from the winning team so Chiesa would of got my vote. 

Very strange choice . 

Player of the match perhaps but Pickford would have got my vote for player of the tournament with five clean sheets.

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1 hour ago, eh up nah said:

Wow!

I'm thinking you simply don't like the fella.

He's got a better record, but he might not be a better manager?!

Not at all, Southgate has done a good job in both tournaments but I do not agree he is as good as many are coming out with and yes, Hodgson is a better manager, look at his club record and compare to what Southgate has done outside the England job. England were 2nd favourites to win the trophy going in to the tournament and we finished 2nd, yes Southgate did a good job to get us to the final but we ended up where we were predicted to finish.

Last time I looked we are 7th favourite to go up this season, if we make the play offs in 7th position and fail in the play off final, will you be saying that DC is fantastic and done a great job?

 

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I agree with most of that, but would argue that Southgate set us up defensively/pragmatically (delete as appropriate) in order to make up for any relative weaknesses in the centre of defence and midfield. Croatia scored 7 in 2 games against teams who were more open (Scotland and Spain), Germany put 4 past Portugal (and could have had more), and Denmark had scored 10 in 3 games prior to meeting us, so pragmatism seems a logical option in those games.

I disagree with this though

1 hour ago, valefan16 said:

Our squad is far better than Italy man for man

I actually think we're very similar overall, neither squad has huge stars like in the past, but a lot of very good performers for their clubs, good technically and with lots of energy from largely interchangeable players with similar quality in attacking positions, and real togetherness in the squad. The only difference probably is their experience in those key areas, with Chiellini, Bonucci and Jorginho, plus most of their attacking and MF players being at their peak (most mid-to-late 20s, so more experience than most of our kids), and yes, Mancini won the tactical battle on Sunday (but Southgate got the better of Löw, amongst others).

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1 hour ago, philpvfc said:

Not at all, Southgate has done a good job in both tournaments but I do not agree he is as good as many are coming out with and yes, Hodgson is a better manager, look at his club record and compare to what Southgate has done outside the England job. England were 2nd favourites to win the trophy going in to the tournament and we finished 2nd, yes Southgate did a good job to get us to the final but we ended up where we were predicted to finish.

Last time I looked we are 7th favourite to go up this season, if we make the play offs in 7th position and fail in the play off final, will you be saying that DC is fantastic and done a great job?

 

Hodgson as an international manager better than Southgate? I can't have that mate to be honest.  He got the Swiss job after a mixed career in Sweden.  He got them to a last 16 in the USA world cup.  Credible to be fair as they'd not qualified for anything since 1966 at the time.

But that's it.  

With England he was an absolute disaster.

No doubting it.

I think the fact that we were predicted to finish second is largely to do with the setup Southgate has put in place and the performances/results under his tenure.

What was our predicted finish in Russia before it kicked off?

The fact that we were so fancied after the state we were in five years back is pretty impressive I think.

On DC, no, I wouldn't say a 7th favourite side not going up in the playoffs after finishing 7th is a failure.

I'd read that as we are the 7th most likely team to go up.  Only 4 can and the playoffs is a one off tournament anyone can win.

This is just off the top of my head, as I've not seen the odds, but if Salford were the 4th favourites and we both finished 4th and 7th you couldn't call us failures if they beat us in the playoffs using your own logic could you?

I will say that if someone offered me 7th for the Vale this season then I would take it.

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17 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Serious question, Who said last night's game was gonna be easy for England? I only heard comments like, Italy are the best team in the tournament, Italy have played some of the best football, England have home advantage which could be a plus or a negative etc. I heard Del Piero say on ESPN "He thought England had the stronger squad" to which Sammy kadeira retorted "But Italy have the better manager" to which Macca chimed in with, "I hope Southgate isn't too negative etc.

I can't remember seeing a post or hearing anyone say or intimate anything remotely close to "it would be easy for us".

We've had folk saying it was a great opportunity for us and criticising Southgate for not "going for it."

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