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4 hours ago, Joe B said:

There is no evidence that squad stability leads to success at this level.

Teams with mass turnover often do better than teams who keep the 'core' together. Fans getting excited about stability were pining after an era of football that is long gone.

I think it very much depends on the circumstances. Mass turnover at Swindon got them promotion this year, mass turnover at Grimsby could see 'em out of the League this season.

I don't think it's a cut and dry rule. Crewe went up with three permanent and two loan signings in the summer. Swindon went up with eleven changes over the summer. 

For me, I was wary of huge changes previously because I felt that a settled team which knew each other was gelling but that's changed after a summer of poor recruitment. 

So, I do think the time is now clearly ripe for a big overhaul.  I think it's clear that there can't be just one or two changes and I think there's has to be changes possibly in the double figures both in and out of the squad.

How successful that is will go a huge way towards whether we take the Swindon or Grimsby route next season. I obviously hope it's the former. 

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2 hours ago, valeparklife said:

This might be a daft question - but with the EFL scrapping the salary cap rule, does this mean they've also scrapped the maximum squad rules?

Or are we only permitted to register 25 x players over 21 years old?

No the PFA successfully challenged the wage limit in court but the squad limit wasn't discussed in the court case.

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Spot on. Every player we bring in just HAS to be considered to be better or have the potential to be better than what we already have, however difficult that may be. For 4 years we've generally recruited back up players thought to be able to 'do a job' if one of the 'main' 11 was out, and put a lot of trust in that nucleus to do better each season. That trust has largely been abused. It must stop now.

Not a case of a  3/4 Rudgy top up, more  a 3/4 keep for the First Team ?  At least DF & DC will have had an in depth assessment of front runners, improvers, and development options.  No doubt a few surprises. 
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56 minutes ago, robf said:

I think it very much depends on the circumstances. Mass turnover at Swindon got them promotion this year, mass turnover at Grimsby could see 'em out of the League this season.

I don't think it's a cut and dry rule. Crewe went up with three permanent and two loan signings in the summer. Swindon went up with eleven changes over the summer. 

For me, I was wary of huge changes previously because I felt that a settled team which knew each other was gelling but that's changed after a summer of poor recruitment. 

So, I do think the time is now clearly ripe for a big overhaul.  I think it's clear that there can't be just one or two changes and I think there's has to be changes possibly in the double figures both in and out of the squad.

How successful that is will go a huge way towards whether we take the Swindon or Grimsby route next season. I obviously hope it's the former. 

I don't disagree with this; was just dispelling the dominant narrative that 'consistency is good', when there is no correlation at all between % of minutes retained and league position. I'm not suggesting overhauls are always great, but by the same token neither is trimming the fat.

It's less to do with consistency and more to do with quality of recruitment.

We've been diabolical at recruitment since Rob Page/George Foster left so I hope this summer heralds a fresh, clever approach. 

I fully agree that the time is perfect. We have an old, bloated squad who have underperformed in 3 of the last 4 years. We have a new manager and an entirely new operational structure. We have some decent young assets such as Rodney, Conlon, and Gibbons tied down. We've advertised for a recruitment analyst who can use data services. 

Get as many out the door as possible and reset the club. If Flitcroft is as good as he makes out, it could really transform us. One nailed summer can set a team up for a massive charge up the leagues. 

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47 minutes ago, andy jones said:

The affects on player performance post Covid also needs to be taken into account, as it has affected so many younger people to a lesser or greater degree.

Smithy is one whose sudden loss of form takes some explaining otherwise.

Imo Smith's loss of form was due to Legge playing poorly, which was a consequence of poor management of a 35 year old centre half + leaving him exposed with loads of space. 

Smith is a good defender but his fortunes are tethered to having an aerially dominant partner next to him. He's great when Legge is on his game, and looks poor when Legge is playing poorly/not playing at all.

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1 hour ago, Row L said:

For me, all we need is to keep the nucleus of the first team together and add quality. IMO, we need at least 1 good striker (excluding Dave, they can all go), a winger to replace Amoo who doesn't do enough, a good quality left back specialist. Add those 3-4 players and evolve the team and we will be there or thereabouts 

Keep the nucleus of the worst vale side I’ve personally ever seen who have had countless seasons struggling (bar last year) and have been utterly attrocious this season. No thanks. Get them gone, two wins Dosent change anything in my opinion. A lot of the players are past their best now and the others simply aren’t good enough. 
 

If we go into next season (I don’t think we will) with 7/8 of the same starting players we will be in the exact same position. 
 

I hope there is a big clear out, Clarke usually has a big clear out and I hope the majority of our squad is moved on and we start again. 
 

Usually I would agree with what you put. Keep the same core players and add 3/4 players that genuinely improve the starting 11. However year on year of us keeping the same core players and then adding 5/6 useless squad players that aren’t league standard has led to this. Big decision for Clarke and co and I hope he is ruthless and we stop signing players with this scattergun approach and actually scout them. 
We cannot go into the season with just a new left back, striker and winger.   I think we need a keeper, brown been poor this season, at least 1 centre half. Smith has been average, legge very good under Clarke but will have another year under his legs and already looks past it now. A starting Left back. Two wingers, one to start with wozza, one as back up. 2 centre mids capable of starting. 2 forwards. 
 

Keep: Smith. Gibbons. Crookes. Conlon. Rodney. Taylor. Worrall. Manny (if he can stay fit until the end of the season) hurst. Maybe the young keeper Scott. That would be it for me. Start again. 

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I think with out question there will be a big turnover of players, there certainly needs to be! The mentality of some the players needs to be questioned, we desperately need some steel and a few captains! A few of the games when we have played with a half hearted attitude cannot be forgotten or forgiven. I hope some of these poor performances are a thing of the past. 

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I’d look at it like this for next season:-

Possible First Team Players(Keep)

Brown

Gibbons

Smith

Montano(If Fit)

Conlon

Worrall

Taylor

Amoo

Rodney

Backup or Rotation Players(Worth Keeping For 1 Year)

Legge - Due to his age should not be considered first team regular next season but a good backup who could play 25-30 games

Pope - Similar to Legge but wages may dictate if we keep him?

Release/Transfer List/Pay Off

Visser - Hard on the lad as he’s not done much wrong but the age cap means it seems silly to be having a senior player sat on the bench

Mills - Worse than Gibbo for me so I’d look elsewhere 

Fitzpatrick - Has been steady but feel we need better if we want to challenge at the top end

Crookes - He’s improved under Clarke but not sure he is good for a team wanting to challenge 

Brisley - Done Ok but Think we need a younger centre half with some pace

Joyce - For me time to try something new in the middle, a younger stronger and more competitive midfielder

Whitehead - Let’s be honest has he contributed anything this season, I can’t remember much if anything

McKirdy - Not convinced he is a team player that you need in a promotion chasing team

Trickett-Smith - The lad has not managed to make the team so can only assume he isn’t good enough for this level

Cullen - I quite like him but he seems prone to repeat injuries

Guthrie - Done okay no more for me, think we need better

Robinson - I’d hope we can find better

Undecided

Scott - Not seen him so hard to judge

Campbell-Gordon - Doesn’t seem to have pushed through despite our problems at left back

Burgess - Shows effort but needs to improve drastically to be a starter, Think he’s under contract so that may mean he stays

Hurst - Same as Burgess, plenty of effort but needs a bit more quality and strength

Oyeleke - I like him but injuries are a real problem and unless we are convinced we are going to get at least 30 games+ from him then we may have to cut our losses


So that is at least 11 to stay which gives us soon room to go and try and find some real quality to hopefully be regular key starters especially in central defence/midfield & strikers

 

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This is turning into an interesting debate and, as I said recently, nothing like as predictable as a month ago!

For me, the new fitness regime has to be honestly confident they can get Manny playing 5 out of 8 games - roughly the 30 per season we hope for? Similarly, but a lesser extent for Monty. Both of these are too good to release if they can maintain their fitness - and i know there's no guarantees in this. But Amoo, who is also in this kind of category, I would let go. He's a good player, but I don't think he contributes as much as Monty and Manny.

Bring in a new DM...but is Joyce too good in that position to let go?

Defensively, with the renaissance of Leon Legge, and the transformation of Crookes plus the reasonable steadiness of Brisley, I'm not sure we need to tinker?  Maybe a young, dedicated LB? 

Keepers? I liked someone's idea of replacing our GK Coach and give the job to Scott Brown - if he's up to it, and has thought about / is doing his coaching badges? He would then be an excellent backup to Visser, who I would keep. and bring in a youngster to develop. 

I think our biggest problem is upfront - interesting, for the amount of abuse that Rodders has been subjected to, and the bad patch he went through, he has scored only 3 fewer goals than Eoin Doyle!  So, Rodney is a keeper (no...not a GK!!!). I would let Cullen, Guthrie and Pope go, and pool their wages for a striker of proven quality, plus a young lad to develop - Swan looks like he could be useful - and a loanee from  a big Prem/Championship squad. I'm not even sure TP would be a good Coach? Wayne Rooney is finding it's not as easy to Coach / Manage as to be a top goalscorer?

Interesting times coming up, i feel - glad I'm not in DC / DF's shoes, because they will cop for a lot of flak. I'm sure!

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Sadly, I don't think there's any chance of getting Swan unless it's on loan. He's got three more years of his contract to run and was in their Championship squad this season.  Taylor took considerable effort to get permanently and he never even made the Forest first-team. I can't see Swan wanting to drop down to L2 when he may be pushing for a place at Championship level next season.

I think the idea of SB as goalkeeping coach is a nice idea though.

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12 minutes ago, LancyTony said:

This is turning into an interesting debate and, as I said recently, nothing like as predictable as a month ago!

For me, the new fitness regime has to be honestly confident they can get Manny playing 5 out of 8 games - roughly the 30 per season we hope for? Similarly, but a lesser extent for Monty. Both of these are too good to release if they can maintain their fitness - and i know there's no guarantees in this. But Amoo, who is also in this kind of category, I would let go. He's a good player, but I don't think he contributes as much as Monty and Manny.

Bring in a new DM...but is Joyce too good in that position to let go?

Defensively, with the renaissance of Leon Legge, and the transformation of Crookes plus the reasonable steadiness of Brisley, I'm not sure we need to tinker?  Maybe a young, dedicated LB? 

Keepers? I liked someone's idea of replacing our GK Coach and give the job to Scott Brown - if he's up to it, and has thought about / is doing his coaching badges? He would then be an excellent backup to Visser, who I would keep. and bring in a youngster to develop. 

I think our biggest problem is upfront - interesting, for the amount of abuse that Rodders has been subjected to, and the bad patch he went through, he has scored only 3 fewer goals than Eoin Doyle!  So, Rodney is a keeper (no...not a GK!!!). I would let Cullen, Guthrie and Pope go, and pool their wages for a striker of proven quality, plus a young lad to develop - Swan looks like he could be useful - and a loanee from  a big Prem/Championship squad. I'm not even sure TP would be a good Coach? Wayne Rooney is finding it's not as easy to Coach / Manage as to be a top goalscorer?

Interesting times coming up, i feel - glad I'm not in DC / DF's shoes, because they will cop for a lot of flak. I'm sure!

We can’t go into next season with essentially the same back 4. It’s been horrific at times this season. With olagunju going back I think we need at least 2 defenders. (1st team defenders). Left back is interesting when I’ve seen RCG he always looks good and has potential but no manager seems to have fancied him there yet. 

Wouldn’t say Joyce is too good to let go. I personally think he’s been very poor all season and past it. 
 

Agree re the striker. To be fair that is what I would do all around the pitch. Let players go that aren’t good enough and put the money together and bring in a quality player. 

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Loving this idea that all of these "quality" players are going to be queuing up at the doors to sign for Port Vale, a team that's yet again flirted with relegation to non- league.
A team that maybe incoming hopefuls know where it is.... but then they've got to convince their better halves that Burslem really is the place to be!
Don't get me wrong, I want what's best for Vale just like anyone else but get real folks, we aren't suddenly going to become the "go-to" club come June.

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