Match Thread: Tranmere Rovers v Port Vale

[wotsyobeef]

I was very critical of Crookes yesterday, and whilst I feel he was poor for their first 2 goals, I think this was perhaps unfair. He is a centre half who has played 10-15 professional games in his preferred position.


When you look at Crewe and see the way they do things with developing their younger players we don't have their patience. Its often a 4 or 5 year cycle.


Crewe tend to have a good year then lose most of their team due to a few sales and contracts expiring.


The following season they bring in a load of young players and are awful and being relegated from league 1, often then getting rid of the manager.


They have another year or 2 where they are poor and just about survive in league 2, usually being saved by a better second half to the season. They stick with the manager.


They then improve as the youth players they have persisted with develop learn from the sort of mistakes Crookes made yesterday and gain confidence.


The following year they do well often going back up to league 1. After a reasonable season some of their players get sold others leave as their contracts expire and the whole process starts again.


Obviously its not that simple, a few of the youngsters don't cut it and get replaced each season and they make some signings. What they do tend to do is stick with the youngsters for a few years whilst they make mistakes and look at the long term rather than just writing young players of because they do badly and make silly mistakes. They give them a chance to learn from them.


If we are going to look at developing young players we do have to give them a chance to develop and learn from their mistakes. I don't know if Crookes will make it but we won't find out if we bomb him out of the team. Luke Prosser has forged a decent lower league career from a similar position to that which Crookes is currently in.

[PV1973]

11 minutes ago, wotsyobeef said:

I was very critical of Crookes yesterday, and whilst I feel he was poor for their first 2 goals, I think this was perhaps unfair. He is a centre half who has played 10-15 professional games in his preferred position.


When you look at Crewe and see the way they do things with developing their younger players we don't have their patience. Its often a 4 or 5 year cycle.


Crewe tend to have a good year then lose most of their team due to a few sales and contracts expiring.


The following season they bring in a load of young players and are awful and being relegated from league 1, often then getting rid of the manager.


They have another year or 2 where they are poor and just about survive in league 2, usually being saved by a better second half to the season. They stick with the manager.


They then improve as the youth players they have persisted with develop learn from the sort of mistakes Crookes made yesterday and gain confidence.


The following year they do well often going back up to league 1. After a reasonable season some of their players get sold others leave as their contracts expire and the whole process starts again.


Obviously its not that simple, a few of the youngsters don't cut it and get replaced each season and they make some signings. What they do tend to do is stick with the youngsters for a few years whilst they make mistakes and look at the long term rather than just writing young players of because they do badly and make silly mistakes. They give them a chance to learn from them.


If we are going to look at developing young players we do have to give them a chance to develop and learn from their mistakes. I don't know if Crookes will make it but we won't find out if we bomb him out of the team. Luke Prosser has forged a decent lower league career from a similar position to that which Crookes is currently in.

So true. If a young player doesn’t make an impact soon then we seem to lose patience, which shows that as a club we have no long term strategy in place for the development of youngsters. It was really interesting hearing one of Crewe’s execs on radio stoke the other week talking about how they have a “road map” for their youngsters when they turn pro.  With ours it seems a case of sink or swim and only Gibbo and Smith have done that in the last 5 years. I also think that we need to have that youth “road map” separate to some degree to the first team manager as well, otherwise it runs the risk of manager coming in and not liking the young lad and getting rid when he’s hasn’t even had a chance to develop. 

 

[melv]

3 hours ago, Diego Maradona said:

If it’s the case that if we play Legge, it triggers a clause in his contract that he gets another year, this becomes a ‘bit’ of a dilemma.

As a fan, I feel that, ‘Vale’ are just trying to see the season out. It’s almost like ‘Don’t play Legge because we don’t want to trigger this clause’ which I understand as he’s knocking on a bit. But in the meantime, we have a defence which appears to be ‘all over the gaff’ and we’ve not brought in a proven CB in the transfer window. May be we didn’t have the funds?

My main concern is that, by having an attitude of ‘let’s just see the season out’, this can create a culture within the players of ‘Oh, it doesn’t really matter how we play or how much effort I put in because we’re just seeing the season out’. This will quickly turn into (if it hasn’t already turned in to) a relegation battle and trying to turn this attitude around is/will be very difficult.

We need a winning, ambitious culture in the dressing room NOT we’ll just see the season out. Regardless whether or not the play offs or promotion is realistic.

But being as these are 'supposedly' professional footballer in league 2.You would think that they would be doing their very best on the pitch at all times.To put themselves in the shop window so that they may be offered a contract at a bigger club and also earn more money.That would be be professional and ambitious.They have shown before that they can individually and as a team be better than this.As a team we are weak all over there are NO leaders on the pitch,there is no communication,no team work.no understanding of what themselves and other players should be doing.The lack of concentration continues to cost us goals.All this happens time after time.So what are the management team and the players doing during the week to sort out the same recurring issues?Do the management team  and players live in a little bubble within the club and have no communication with the rest of the club?I know and understand that the pandemic is causing huge problems financially for the club as a whole.But this is no excuse for players not performing on the pitch.As 'professional' footballers they really are an embarrassment to themselves and to professional football.They cant even say that fan's are getting on their backs,putting undue pressure on them.Which is making them make mistakes.There are no fans in the stadium to do so.If you were a potential manager watching these useless incompetent clueless cretins would you be willing to take on the task of getting this team up the league?

[Diego Maradona]

Clearly though, some players haven’t been performing since Kings Lynn. Askey then goes. Now we’ll just see the season out. Some people are not self motivated. Clearly, a lot of our players. Add to that a defence that do not have a clue. All adds up to some serious issues, including the culture of the team.

[blackdog]

36 minutes ago, wotsyobeef said:

I was very critical of Crookes yesterday, and whilst I feel he was poor for their first 2 goals, I think this was perhaps unfair. He is a centre half who has played 10-15 professional games in his preferred position.


When you look at Crewe and see the way they do things with developing their younger players we don't have their patience. Its often a 4 or 5 year cycle.


Crewe tend to have a good year then lose most of their team due to a few sales and contracts expiring.


The following season they bring in a load of young players and are awful and being relegated from league 1, often then getting rid of the manager.


They have another year or 2 where they are poor and just about survive in league 2, usually being saved by a better second half to the season. They stick with the manager.


They then improve as the youth players they have persisted with develop learn from the sort of mistakes Crookes made yesterday and gain confidence.


The following year they do well often going back up to league 1. After a reasonable season some of their players get sold others leave as their contracts expire and the whole process starts again.


Obviously its not that simple, a few of the youngsters don't cut it and get replaced each season and they make some signings. What they do tend to do is stick with the youngsters for a few years whilst they make mistakes and look at the long term rather than just writing young players of because they do badly and make silly mistakes. They give them a chance to learn from them.


If we are going to look at developing young players we do have to give them a chance to develop and learn from their mistakes. I don't know if Crookes will make it but we won't find out if we bomb him out of the team. Luke Prosser has forged a decent lower league career from a similar position to that which Crookes is currently in.

You are quite right about Crewe, Artell came from the youth's I think the U16's and stepped up to run the 1st team, they put a fortune into their academy and you have to be very patient and give them the chance to learn, that will never happen at the Vale ,if you think about it Crewe are unique in football, they will get relegated in the next couple of seasons and their supporters wont bat an eye lid.

[Warren]

Crookes has to show much more ability on the ball for me to believe he can prosper. Can't have two central defenders who are not confident to take the ball up the pitch into the opposition half and play forward efficiently. Legge does have that ability. He may play too many ambitious passes but he is comfortable on the ball. We are going absolutely nowhere if the midfield have to come deep to get on the ball or the ball just gets passed side to side or it gets lumped in the wrong way to the target man or it gets pumped in to space where the opposition are favourite to get their first. 

All this is aside from actual defending. My idea of centre half is a big dude that heads everything out and we ain't got one presently.

[Warren]

11 minutes ago, blackdog said:

You are quite right about Crewe, Artell came from the youth's I think the U16's and stepped up to run the 1st team, they put a fortune into their academy and you have to be very patient and give them the chance to learn, that will never happen at the Vale ,if you think about it Crewe are unique in football, they will get relegated in the next couple of seasons and their supporters wont bat an eye lid.

The club I admire most is Accrington. No way should they be a football league club. But they are and they are prospering in the league above us with a long term manager and overall club approach. I do have a lot of respect for Crewe as well. And Wycombe.

[grand prix pants]

28 minutes ago, melv said:

But being as these are 'supposedly' professional footballer in league 2.You would think that they would be doing their very best on the pitch at all times.To put themselves in the shop window so that they may be offered a contract at a bigger club and also earn more money.That would be be professional and ambitious.They have shown before that they can individually and as a team be better than this.As a team we are weak all over there are NO leaders on the pitch,there is no communication,no team work.no understanding of what themselves and other players should be doing.The lack of concentration continues to cost us goals.All this happens time after time.So what are the management team and the players doing during the week to sort out the same recurring issues?Do the management team  and players live in a little bubble within the club and have no communication with the rest of the club?I know and understand that the pandemic is causing huge problems financially for the club as a whole.But this is no excuse for players not performing on the pitch.As 'professional' footballers they really are an embarrassment to themselves and to professional football.They cant even say that fan's are getting on their backs,putting undue pressure on them.Which is making them make mistakes.There are no fans in the stadium to do so.If you were a potential manager watching these useless incompetent clueless cretins would you be willing to take on the task of getting this team up the league?

Do you think Crooks isn’t trying his best? Why would he not? More than anyone, he will know that his future in the professional game hangs by a thread. I’d be astonished if he hadn’t cottoned on to that. Whether he’s good enough is another story. But I don’t buy the narrative that says he isn’t trying hard enough, and the same could be said of most of the other younger lads I would think.

[For Us All]

17 minutes ago, blackdog said:

You are quite right about Crewe, Artell came from the youth's I think the U16's and stepped up to run the 1st team, they put a fortune into their academy and you have to be very patient and give them the chance to learn, that will never happen at the Vale ,if you think about it Crewe are unique in football, they will get relegated in the next couple of seasons and their supporters wont bat an eye lid.

Players like David Platt,Robbie Savage,Geoff Thomas,Neil Lennon,Steve Jones,Rob Jones,Danny Murphy,Seth Johnson,Dean Ashton and David Vaughan show how successful their academy is.

[blackdog]

5 minutes ago, Warren said:

The club I admire most is Accrington. No way should they be a football league club. But they are and they are prospering in the league above us with a long term manager and overall club approach. I do have a lot of respect for Crewe as well. And Wycombe.

I agree Accrington are to be admired, it's funny how Coleman struggled at Rochdale and yet at Stanley he does so well, some managers are a perfect fit.

I think that's what Carol would like to achieve, I also think she saw that long term plan with Askey but obviously it didn't work out.

If Coleman came to the Vale would he have the same success? It wouldn't be guaranteed, nothing in football is. 

[Wrex]

3 hours ago, valiant_593 said:

People are forgetting we have signed a CB why sign him to warm the bench? 

He has one FA Cup game and a handful of National League South appearances to his name. Big potential but I fear it's a baptism of fire putting him in this defence.

[Wrex]

3 hours ago, connor hackett said:

6 hours ago, Walter said:

Probably sounds harsh, but I would send guthrie back. Pointless. Works hard yeah, but isnt very good and wont score.

Send him back where?

Jersey? Brexit means Brexit get these foreign lot out!

[melv]

1 hour ago, grand prix pants said:

Do you think Crooks isn’t trying his best? Why would he not? More than anyone, he will know that his future in the professional game hangs by a thread. I’d be astonished if he hadn’t cottoned on to that. Whether he’s good enough is another story. But I don’t buy the narrative that says he isn’t trying hard enough, and the same could be said of most of the other younger lads I would think.

The point about trying their best was in relation the the claim before about players not playing for Askey.I should have made that more clear.

But even so a lot of the time the whole team give the impression that they simply are just not interested or bothered in the slightest.Often when a Vale player gets fouled the other Vale players dont even appeal for a foul.Other teams have players (rightly or wrongly) screaming for the foul,surrounding the ref trying to get the foul.ALL players should always give their best what ever level they play at what ever their ability level is.They should do so as professional footballers and to try and further their chances of playing at higher levels.

 

[valiant_593]

12 minutes ago, Wrex said:

He has one FA Cup game and a handful of National League South appearances to his name. Big potential but I fear it's a baptism of fire putting him in this defence.

No point signing him then. Is he going to be another player like edser? I remember when Pugh bought players in last time. They never played 

[grand prix pants]

14 minutes ago, melv said:

The point about trying their best was in relation the the claim before about players not playing for Askey.I should have made that more clear.

But even so a lot of the time the whole team give the impression that they simply are just not interested or bothered in the slightest.Often when a Vale player gets fouled the other Vale players dont even appeal for a foul.Other teams have players (rightly or wrongly) screaming for the foul,surrounding the ref trying to get the foul.ALL players should always give their best what ever level they play at what ever their ability level is.They should do so as professional footballers and to try and further their chances of playing at higher levels.

 

Ah, ok, agreed. People can criticize the dark arts you’ve described but it usually shows a united team, in it together. I thought the same yesterday when Spearing clattered Hurst. Oh for a player capable of mixing it like that. Or willing to. Or with the confidence to.