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Scottish Independence


Mario
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I can see the argument now more than before brexit, but to me it’s the same chest thumping nonsense as brexit, with not enough consideration of the consequences. I know someone who was staunchly anti brexit but pro independence. Yet it will leave more issues than brexit. Do they have the euro, or do they attach themselves to a currency they have no control over. If they want to rejoin Europe what about the border? They are already claiming it won’t be a hard border but a ‘smart border’, it’s like deja vu. The national debt has also grown massively since the last referendum. They will need to take their share just was the uk had to pay our dues to the eu. Are they willing to lose free prescriptions or uni fees? Their banking on North Sea oil seems like a losing bet with the oil prices dropping and the move to other sources of energy. 
Nothing like a bit of nationalism to blind people to the lessons of the present never mind the past.

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I don't really have any strong feelings either way.

I don't think independence would do them much good, but I can see why they would want to be rid of a very London centric system. We've seen the movement for Catalan independence gain traction during the same time, most likely for the same reasons (austerity, alienation from central government...)

It seems to be a subject that exists simply to make people angry and pull them further apart. That seems to be the main purpose of the news these days in the clickbait era: generate an emotional response

 

 

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1 hour ago, Andyregs said:

I can see the argument now more than before brexit, but to me it’s the same chest thumping nonsense as brexit, with not enough consideration of the consequences. I know someone who was staunchly anti brexit but pro independence. Yet it will leave more issues than brexit. Do they have the euro, or do they attach themselves to a currency they have no control over. If they want to rejoin Europe what about the border? They are already claiming it won’t be a hard border but a ‘smart border’, it’s like deja vu. The national debt has also grown massively since the last referendum. They will need to take their share just was the uk had to pay our dues to the eu. Are they willing to lose free prescriptions or uni fees? Their banking on North Sea oil seems like a losing bet with the oil prices dropping and the move to other sources of energy. 
Nothing like a bit of nationalism to blind people to the lessons of the present never mind the past.

Stronger in the EU than out, assets fish, wind ,  hydro electric. do they have control of the pound?  Similar size population to Ireland.  Tax the land to pay off the debts.  Form a Celtic Republic with Ireland and Wales?

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Scotland only contributes 8% of the UK’s GDP but is responsible for 9.25% of the UK’s total expenditure. In other words it’s a big net beneficiary from the Union. 
Should they leave (and it’s their choice) they should ensure they can finance it especially with oil revenues dropping and soon to become even lower with the move away from fossil fuelled cars. Would Scotland been able to finance a pandemic furlough and grant scheme on their own? 🤔

Personally, from what I’ve heard from a Scottish work colleague the SNP have done a poor job in schools with falling education standards and a poor job in reducing long term unemployment. Scotland has more drug addicts and drug related deaths than any country in the world and the numbers are rising not reducing.

Edited by soothsayer

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Whether they go or not (NI too) is not our decision. But I do know it's more likely now after the election of a Johnson London centric government and an unwise Brexit. I can understand fully why they'd want to go their way, and remain in the EU.

It's another consequence of Brexit - increasing the chance of the UK breaking up. 

And on the same rationale as the UK left the EU you can't argue against those two countries now leaving the UK. 

I hope they don't go down that path but English nationalism makes it more likely than at any other time in my lifetime. 

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13 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Stronger in the EU than out, assets fish, wind ,  hydro electric. do they have control of the pound?  Similar size population to Ireland.  Tax the land to pay off the debts.  Form a Celtic Republic with Ireland and Wales?

If they choose to keep the pound it would be like us using the euro but not being in the eu. 
They also have a vastly disproportionate amount of mp’s for their population currently. 
Not sure what you mean with the taxes comment. However some are already arguing that Scotland should not take on debt (some go as far to say they are owed). 
They are falling into the same trap as brexiteers in believing it will be simple and then be all rainbows and unicorns. Having their cake abs eat it. It will be a mess. They are far more interconnected to the uk than the uk was ever interconnected to Europe. And if they want to join the eu, it will make it even more complicated. Currently they could believably negotiate the border issue. Join the eu, and there is a hard border. Otherwise what’s the point of borders elsewhere. 

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15 hours ago, Andyregs said:

If they choose to keep the pound it would be like us using the euro but not being in the eu. 
They also have a vastly disproportionate amount of mp’s for their population currently. 
Not sure what you mean with the taxes comment. However some are already arguing that Scotland should not take on debt (some go as far to say they are owed). 
They are falling into the same trap as brexiteers in believing it will be simple and then be all rainbows and unicorns. Having their cake abs eat it. It will be a mess. They are far more interconnected to the uk than the uk was ever interconnected to Europe. And if they want to join the eu, it will make it even more complicated. Currently they could believably negotiate the border issue. Join the eu, and there is a hard border. Otherwise what’s the point of borders elsewhere. 

As an Independent nation they would control the tax system, a suitable tax in Scotland is on land as there is lots of it with wealthy owners.  Would  be up to them how they arrange their parliament, increase and rename their assembly members, eventually would need MEPs.  Trade borders are required where terms of trade are different.  International borders define which football shirts are applicable, otherwise  I  am in favour of none.

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I think it's likely to happen.

Most scots probably know about the economic consequences but are probably feeling powerless in that their destiny is tied to whatever the ruling majority in parliament decides.

Personally as an other option I would like to see our electoral system move to proportional representation. I think you would see more issues based alliances which might help smaller parties have more say and voters feeling less disenfranchised as every vote counts.

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2 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

As an Independent nation they would control the tax system, a suitable tax in Scotland is on land as there is lots of it with wealthy owners.  Would  be up to them how they arrange their parliament, increase and rename their assembly members, eventually would need MEPs.  Trade borders are required where terms of trade are different.  International borders define which football shirts are applicable, otherwise  I  am in favour of none.

You make it sound as easy as brexit. If they join the eu they would need a border. 

1 hour ago, Hitcher said:

I think it's likely to happen.

Most scots probably know about the economic consequences but are probably feeling powerless in that their destiny is tied to whatever the ruling majority in parliament decides.

Personally as an other option I would like to see our electoral system move to proportional representation. I think you would see more issues based alliances which might help smaller parties have more say and voters feeling less disenfranchised as every vote counts.

Aren’t all our destiny’s tied to the ruling majority in parliament. I’d argue that a Scot has far more representation than I do, as his vote is worth proportionally more. The SNP got 48 seats for 1.2 million votes. Lib Dem’s got 11 seat for 3.7 million. And they have their own parliament. The parallels to brexit are stark, and just like brexit they don’t realise what a good deal they already have. I don’t know what surprises me more, that the Scots want it or that the tories don’t.

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1 hour ago, Andyregs said:

You make it sound as easy as brexit. If they join the eu they would need a border. 

Aren’t all our destiny’s tied to the ruling majority in parliament. I’d argue that a Scot has far more representation than I do, as his vote is worth proportionally more. The SNP got 48 seats for 1.2 million votes. Lib Dem’s got 11 seat for 3.7 million. And they have their own parliament. The parallels to brexit are stark, and just like brexit they don’t realise what a good deal they already have. I don’t know what surprises me more, that the Scots want it or that the tories don’t.

I agree with your summary.  People vote with their hearts and not their head.  There is something that appeals to all of us about the concept of being independent and thinking that you are making your own decisions.  More govt money is spent per head in Scotland than elsewhere in the UK. I am not sure if that will be a significant factor when people vote though.

I lived and worked in Scotland for a number of years. Sadly, in some parts of the country there is a strong anti Englishness. That feeling, plus the dysfunctional nature of the Govt at Westminster will, I believe combine and lead to an independence vote. Cameron, May and Johnson have never done anything much to reach out to the Scottish people.  They allowed Nicola Sturgeon's rhetoric to dominate the day and permitted her  to convey the image that her party is competent, focussed, well organised and ready to govern. 

In reality she is leading a ramshackle bunch who rely on paternalism, and nepotism.  They are incapable of managing themselves. Their refusal to hand over files in respect of their mismanagement of the Alex Salmond affair, in which costs were awarded against them is further evidence of their incompetence and unwillingness for open government.

Scottish 16 year olds are apparently functioning as 13 year olds for reading ability. 

The death rates from drug misuse in Scotland is frighteningly high.

Nicola Sturgeon continues to dominate our news screen though, because she is a competent speaker, with great rhetorical skills, and the ability to deflect attention away from the real issues around the incompetence of her party.  However, look at the opposition to take her on.  Boris, Keir, Ed (he is actually the Lib Dem but you can be forgiven for not knowing that).

 

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21 minutes ago, Essex Vale said:

I agree with your summary.  People vote with their hearts and not their head.  There is something that appeals to all of us about the concept of being independent and thinking that you are making your own decisions.  More govt money is spent per head in Scotland than elsewhere in the UK. I am not sure if that will be a significant factor when people vote though.

I lived and worked in Scotland for a number of years. Sadly, in some parts of the country there is a strong anti Englishness. That feeling, plus the dysfunctional nature of the Govt at Westminster will, I believe combine and lead to an independence vote. Cameron, May and Johnson have never done anything much to reach out to the Scottish people.  They allowed Nicola Sturgeon's rhetoric to dominate the day and permitted her  to convey the image that her party is competent, focussed, well organised and ready to govern. 

In reality she is leading a ramshackle bunch who rely on paternalism, and nepotism.  They are incapable of managing themselves. Their refusal to hand over files in respect of their mismanagement of the Alex Salmond affair, in which costs were awarded against them is further evidence of their incompetence and unwillingness for open government.

Scottish 16 year olds are apparently functioning as 13 year olds for reading ability. 

The death rates from drug misuse in Scotland is frighteningly high.

Nicola Sturgeon continues to dominate our news screen though, because she is a competent speaker, with great rhetorical skills, and the ability to deflect attention away from the real issues around the incompetence of her party.  However, look at the opposition to take her on.  Boris, Keir, Ed (he is actually the Lib Dem but you can be forgiven for not knowing that).

 

build the m6 wall and let em stew without funding.

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